atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services Outside Plant OSP Construction Unused/Cut Aerial Drops.

One of my pet peeves is seeing overly long aerial "tails" flapping like a flag every time the wind blows. At some point, the cables wrap themselves around the telephone poles and look really ugly.

Why won't lineworkers either open the splice cases and cut the old drops (along with shaking out any garbage that may have gotten inside)...or...cut to within a foot to avoid telephone pole "strangulation"

In my neighborhood, the copper is in poor shape (Verizon technicians have admitted it). The company migrates chronic problem customers to FiOS fiber. With this situation, why not fully cut old drops and be done with it

I'm sure that many of Verizon's technicians would love to get paid to do this, but that is the problem. Verizon isn't going to spend a dime on anything that doesn't make them a profit. They have no interest in maintaining their copper plant in FiOS areas, so they will just let it collapse over time.

In their non-FiOS areas, it is quite the opposite. In central Virginia, they have sent all of their good copper people there to participate in massive upgrades and rebuilding of their copper facilities. Since these areas won't be included in their FiOS build out, copper is the only thing they have left. Not to mention, they have to play by the rules with copper. They can't fly under the radar like they do with FiOS with regard to the regulations.

Meanwhile, we get stuck with all of their crappy copper people here who don't know how to use a Scotchlok.

It does go without saying that Verizon won't spend any more time/money working on copper facilities in FiOS areas than it has to.

Still...why not cut unused drops up near the splice cases as opposed to 3/4 of the down the pole? It shouldn't be that hard or time consuming to raise the ladder or bucket 15 or so feet higher and cut up at the top.

Verizon cut two drops on the pole outside the house. If I could legally do it, I would get my tree trimming pole out, fully extend it and snip the spaghetti up higher to get it out of sight/out of mind.

I can only venture to guess that there was a time in some areas where Verizon was using contractors for new FiOS installations and they weren't permitted to go that far. As you know, they are often instructed to sabotage, or otherwise render useless, any existing copper once the cutover is complete.

My stepson was an installer for at&t in Georgia for a few years and he did a lot of their UVerse installations. He told me that there were union and non-union areas of the outside plant. The union people would install the drop to the house and then the contractors could come in to finish the installation. The poles and pedestals were 100% hands-off for the installers.

Another possible reason for what you've observed could just be attributed to ridiculously-tight time allowances for installations. There just isn't enough time allotted to climb up the pole and properly remove the drop. They just cut it at ground level and run to the next installation.

Then there's always the possibility of people just being lazy.

Believe it or not...this only happened within the last 7 days. Years ago, when we swiched to FiOS, the two copper drops to the house were fully removed.

Comcast does the same thing. The old cable TV drop to our house was coiled up about half way up the pole when we switched to FiOS. My dad made multiple calls to Comcast to have someone come by and remove the coil.

It hasn't moved an inch.

Well, Comcast has an equal appetite for cold hard cash, so they sure aren't going to spend a dime on it unless they can generate revenue from it.

Wouldn't it be great if LECs who are pushing to exit copper/POTS lines were required by law to fully remove the obsolete cabling from poles and conduit as a condition for their request?!

Yes indeed. I do find quite a bit of irony in the fact that they go around lashing their fiber cables onto existing copper ones in order to capitalize on the existing support strand and hardware. By doing so, they are pretty much stuck with that copper forever unless they want to go back later and take everything down and then re-lash the fiber.

I was looking at another forum and a CATV installer was asking the same question about abandoned telephone drops and hardware. He said that he'll often trim back obviously dead wiring while he is up a pole, but he can't seem to understand why he's the only person who sees this as an issue,

I thought that the OSP fiber that Verizon uses has a steel support strand. Verizon changed the support on the house, but reused the clips down the side of the building. I snagged the round ceramic insulator (vintage New England Telephone) and the terminating block (vintage Western Electric).

Looks like the other person is not alone in our dislike of dangling cables.

I'm speaking of the feeder and distribution F/O cables. You'll notice that they are overlashed onto the original much larger copper cables using the same steel support strand. The individual drops to buildings are nearly identical to the original one-pair copper clad steel drops and utilize the same attachment hardware. This drop cable is equally-tough, in fact they bury it directly in the ground here.

The outer jacket can be used in either situation? I know that pre-terminated fibers are used between the outside distribution block and the OTU.

Well, I can't say for sure that it is rated for direct burial, but they sure are doing it around here. At first, they would put in 1" innerduct, then pull the fiber cable in, but not any more. I will say that the cable has a copper tracer wire under the jacket, so maybe it really is dual rated. I guess I'll dig around to find out (no pun intended).

We do sub contract work for Verizon. The stated policy is leave anything old alone, no matter what the condition and just do what is exactly on your work order. Of course, we always remove the dead drops and make sure the copper drops that are still connected are connected securely and properly. I have the same problem seeing poorly attached "flappers" on poles, etc.

Underground work, here, still requires innerduct and we pull a copper locating wire with the fiber. The new work locations where new housing developments are do not use innerduct and the drop cables have a locator copper wire embedded.

Rcaman

Yep I see a lot of this in my area (ex-Verizon, now Fairpoint). But last few months I've seen a surge in line construction and some cleanup. Things like the steel guards being replaced on outside plant cable going from aerial down the pole into underground, aerial cable plant being attached to new utility poles (where new poles have been in place for years....). It's kind of interesting actually.

Funny thing about Verizon ditching copper for fiber to premise is that the company has capped FiOS. Existing areas will continue to be serviced, areas where the legal process is underway will continue...but that is it.

I'd still like to cut those tails shorter. They look horrible.

In our office building, Verizon pretty much "red flagged" all of the copper coming in, as in marking the outdoor terminal with a red X. I know that they don't do this to mark if for a formal removal. I think it is more to mark it so that their installers won't try to use it. The predominant tenant in our building got FiOS for their voice and data, and I guess that they assumed that nobody else would be moving into the building.

We came in and arranged to have our existing PRI from a CLEC moved to the building. We had to get a few POTS lines as a temporary measure until Verizon could get our T1 installed. They were able to give us those over the existing ONT almost immediately. I asked their installer how they were going to get our T1 in and he had no clue what I was talking about.

Lo and behold, they ended up bringing our circuit in over that dreaded copper that they so wish to abandon. I have to laugh when they think that FiOS is so advanced, while it provides such a narrow range of services. POTS, CATV and Internet. I guess they figure that anything else just isn't needed anymore. They can run as hard as they want, but they aren't going to escape their responsibilities in being a regulated utility.

I suppose for more advanced applications, Verizon would install commercial grade fiber muxes. The Tellabs ONTs are good...as noted...for POTs, basic data and cable TV. That would cover residential and small office situations.

That's interesting. Here in western PA, I have not seen a copper high cap circuit installed in the last 5 years. Every Verizon install is done in fiber. They will go out of their way to install fiber and completely abandon copper. The craftspersons who were copper splicers are all gone. The last "lead" cable mechanic retired. Splicing, if necessary, is now left to the installers and techs. They hate it because they are not properly set up to do it. I have seen a fiber truck roll up to a job only to have to call someone to splice a copper cable. I asked a fiber tech if he sees any "bridle" wire? He said "Bridle wire...what's that?"

I'm getting OLD!

Rcaman

At least he didn't think that bridal wire had something to do with horses.

At this point, Verizon can't really get 100% away from copper or fiber. Even wireless communication requires some sort of hard media to get service from cell sites to switching centers.

Another incentive to cut unneeded drops close to the splice points is that the company could get more money when the time comes to take that copper to the scrap yard.

I was working at a Macy's store today that is undergoing renovations. They have sold off the fifth floor which originally contained Verizon's underground facilities and their PBX room. Yeah, that is a bit of an odd setup, but that's how it was.

Verizon brought in fiber and installed a rack with all kinds of power and electronic equipment on it. The customer had ordered one DS3 which came in over the fiber. Another DS3 was used to feed a rack of Adtran cards that are presumably there for various other DS1 circuits, etc. None were live.

They also brought in a brand-new 100 pair copper cable from the manhole out in the street. Ironically, about 15 of the pairs were being used for POTS lines.

I saw a similar situation last week where they brought in a brand-new 600 pair copper feed cable for a six-story office building. Of course, this was in addition to the usual racks of fiber stuff.

It doesn't appear that copper is dead in these parts as Verizon seems to be more than willing to bring it in on new installations just like the good old days. The only thing that I can't get my head around is those damned Krone blocks that they've started using.

In one of the COs I seem to visit monthly, there's a 4'x4'x4' plastic crate that the LEC technicians fill with scrap copper, mostly 1-pair aerial drop wires that are 30+ yrs old. They seem to fill that bin up to the top in a couple of months. Then it gets emptied, I assume taken to the scrap yard. Wash/rinse/repeat.

My former employer...Level(3)...also saves scrap copper. The office I was based out of has 2 bins. One is used for low voltage cable and the other is for high voltage cable.

I can imagine that LECs are making frequent trips to the scrap yard due to the sheer volume of copper that they support.

When I saw Ed writing about the Macy's building, I envisioned it must be set up the same way as the one at Downtown Crossing here in Boston. The former Jordan Marsh flagship building has a store on the ground level and telecom condos on the upper ones.

The closer you get to the rivers, the higher the Verizon cable heads are installed. I have a client 2 blocks away from the Allegheny river and their cable room is on the 11th floor. It's like that in 90% of the high rise buildings in Pittsburgh. The cables and fibers come from the manholes and go straight to the high floors before being broken out to individual demarcs. Here, that's not unusual. I guess a few hundred years of flooding does have some impact on cable planning.

Rcaman

Paul, I think that in the Macy's instance (formerly a Hecht's store), it was more about the fact that this was/is a high-end retail store. The basement level was more important for deliveries and storage of merchandise. It is my understanding that this building was once Hecht's main distribution facility and their headquarters back before regional logistics came about. This building dates back to the 1930s. The lower levels were all about street-level access for customers. The fifth floor was designated as space for offices and utilities. Keep in mind that this store is in the heart of downtown Arlington, VA where street-level facades and access are key. There's really no flooding risk in this particular area. I would think that if this was the case, they wouldn't dare build out a new main telecommunications room in the basement.

Now that Macy's has taken over with much more advanced distribution and management operations, there is no longer a need for space for these things. It sure breaks my heart to see all of the thousands of feet of copper being pulled out of there.

Before the rivers were cleaned up and the channels cleaned out from 100 years of pollution, the rivers flooded every year and made for basement facilities impractical. In fact, the power utility had large power distribution transformers hanging high on pole structures in allies behind all the buildings in the downtown area. It has only been in the last 25 years that they began to place even larger transformers and distribution switching facilities underground. Verizon continues to maintain facility in the upper floors of almost all the major buildings.

Rcaman

In regards to services over fiber, I know that they do make business class ONT's that will deliver POTS, Ethernet (data/IPTV), RF TV, and T1 or Pseudowire connections. I would think that Verizon would have tried to install one of those to deliver your PRI circuit.

Ed said,

Ed, around here they do the same thing, but they don't actually lash anything... they just use lots and lots of electrical tape!!!

The whole FiOS system around here has a very temporary look. The loose-tube fiber doesn't require the "tennis rackets" to store the service loops, so they just coil them up. Sometimes they tape them to something, sometimes they flap in the breeze. Are they planning to do it all over again after they remove the copper, or are they not even thinking that far ahead?

As far as abandoned drops, in my Mom & Dad's neighborhood most copper drops start at a pole mounted box or the nearest access boot, and then are clipped to the PIC support strand running back to the point where they make the lateral connection to the house. When the FiOS is installed, they wad up lateral portion of the copper drop as far as the pole line, than tie it into a ball and leave it hanging mid-span at about chest height. I see dozens of these meatballs on their street, and they have been there for years.

Gotta love it.

Jim Bennett
========================================================
"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right." - Mark Twain

Meatballs!!!

You'd think that the line person would take the extra minute or two to cut higher up. No manager of any substance would balk at that.

You are correct. Our PRI is coming from Windstream.

We have Verizon FiOS here in the office. One ONT, 8 lines and internet. I have seen Verizon put fiber in a building and then terminate it to copper interfaces for other carries to use. All the FiOS OSP here is nice and neat. I can't imagine any OSP foreman not allowing for proper termination. That would be a call back waiting to happen.

Rcaman

I guess some places may have restrictions. I know, for a fact, that in this area of western PA, customers can and do have FiOS service and have CLEC service. We also have large services such as shopping malls and office complex that are fiber fed from Verizon and then terminated to copper transition patch blocks. Any and all CLEC services can be founnd on these installations.

Rcaman

I've rarely seen orders to remove drops from houses, most the time its cut by a contractor (electrical, roofing, etc), LEC, or competing company.

Proactive cleanup is done by most company however You have to keep in mind the massive amount of techs it would take to double check every pole.

However making a complaint to a CLEC should be enough to get the drop removed if it posses any risk. I have been on a few of those after the recent ice storm here.

These flappers in my area are Verizon technicians who simply are not spending the extra few minutes to cut closer to the splice. I do understand that the copper in this area is in poor shape and Verizon won't spend any more time than it has to on it because FiOS is available.

It would not shock me if Verizon abandons fiber if/when a suitable over the air system becomes available for residential/home office use.

On the flipside you have this. I went to do a DSL install for a new customer a few weeks ago. I arrived onsite and saw there was no NID (well NIDs as there are two drops). Talked with the customer (renting an apartment) then talked with the landlord.

Landlord: Yeah I cut down the aerial drops and removed the NIDs as I thought no one would use a phone line again. But I did call the LEC before I did that and asked them to remove the drops and NIDs. They wanted $500 to do it, so I just cut off the drops myself and threw the NIDs out.

The LEC ended up having to go back out and install a new NID (a bonus for us lowly CLECs often times having to deal with 30+ yr old N.E. Tel NIDs that are corroded/weathered and falling apart and drop wires leaking signal badly). And because the old NIDs were on the opposite side of the house from the power meter, the LEC more than likely had to move the new drops to the other side of the house for grounding purposes (landlord cut the old ground wire that went to the cold water pipes in the basement flush with the siding). According to a coworker, the LEC should have charged the CLEC for T&M but most of the techs he said don't bother with paperwork.

I'm wondering why the landlord wasn't fined by the LEC (Fairpoint?) for destruction of property.

I think Fairpoint would have an easier time getting money out of the CLECs than the landlord who isn't a customer, meaning lots of paperwork, attorneys, etc. 10 or 15 years ago Bell Atlantic would have probably gone after the landlord for that. But those days are gone. And as a CLEC our hands are tied; we need a NID to connect a new customer, Fairpoint is happy to install one, and bill us for it. Not much we can do about it.

Asked the LEC to replace an old rubberized drop wire as we think it is the cause of intermittent DSL sync and dropping pots calls, on a service call today. What does LEC technician do? Installs a new drop wire (2 pair 22AWG gsdw is what they use now) through the bridle rings on the outside of the customer's home, new lashings at the roof line, new lashings on the 500pr on the street (tree in the way, so has to go direct to the main cable) and leaves the old drop wire in place, unconnected at the splice case on the pole hanging below, and unconnected on the LEC side of the NID. Can't take 5 extra minutes with his bucket truck to cut the old drop wire down and remove it. I guess I shouldn't complain that the tech even bothered to install a new drop wire.