atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums General General Telephone & Systems Information ibew - elecrical license required

I am a member of IBEW local 26 down here in DC and we actually have a separate certification. I am currently rated thru our local as a tele-data tech. it allows us to work on anything low voltage except fire alarm systems.The union really isn't pushing for manditory license. however we do go and get jurisdictional low voltage licenses.

What do you think the reason is the union will not let you work on , or certify you for low voltage fire alarm systems ? Just curious .

Edited for clarity .

MacGyver,

You would be VERY wrong if you think that there aren't many residential electrical fires in Chicago. I cringe everytime that I hear about another Chicago electrical fire because I know the condition of the wiring in most Chicago homes - very hazardous.

Rubber and cloth wiring predominate. Both in thick walled conduit and old BX. Most of this wiring has grossly deteriorated and will crumble at any movement or touch. Old fixture boxes, switch boxes, and junction boxes are the ignition source of many Chicago fires.

The union controlled electrical code of "all steel everywhere" makes it impossible to re-wire an occupied Chicago home. As someone figured out, the only practical way to rewire a residential building in Chicago is to rip out the walls for the installation of EMT. Very few homes are rewired until the home is vacant and someone with lots of money comes along and guts it. The going rate (2005) for a gut rehab of a typical two story frame Chicago home is $100,000. One story Chicago bungalow rehabs are cheaper, but still expensive and not as economical.

Most people need to occupy their home. They have to live with their old ratty wiring.

Wow, that's unbelievable. I kind of figured that the union must be the driving force behind the "all steel" thing because I know of no other part of the country where new home construction requires EMT.

So tell me, Vinn. Do you know why receptactles are mounted horizontally in Chigago? It really looks stupid in kitchens where you have receptacles and switches in the same area. Are phone jacks installed sideways as well? I am really curious about the whole Chicago way of doing things because it's truly unique to the rest of the country.

I did electrical work in NJ, NY and DC for years and I know what you are talking about when you mention old BX with brittle wire. We used to find many pancake boxes mounted on an old gas light pipe nipple and the gas line was still live! Talk about an invitation for disaster. Knob and tube isn't something I have had to deal with much, but they say that when you look at the basic concept, it's actually pretty safe with the exception of the missing ground conductor. It's kind of hard for a short to occur when the wires are a foot apart!

The house I Grew up in was set up this way (IN JERSEY ALSO). I just helped a good friend of mine put in a few phone and data jacks in his house. He still has the gas tubes run in the hallways. At least these have been disconnected in the basement

[/QB][/QUOTE]my only gripe with non company installers / electricians is when they use substandard junk wire and jacks for their inside jack runs.. but its people saving a buck or 2 that keeps me in overtime.. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Well, for $xxx - $xxx per cable run like the unions around here you better be using all top quality equipment. And not to be too out of line here but I think that us non-union guys go around fixing the union shops work just alittle bit more that you fix ours.
Unions...been there, done that...can't stand them or their work ethics.

edited for pricing

The union is the driving force behind the "all steel" thing, but they hide behind the Fire Marshall. For years the Chicago code included a "note" from the Chicago Fire Marshall stating that no combustible material could be used in electrical infrastructure which produces toxic fumes. Only high temp thermoplastic wire insulation is allowed.

Nevermind that the typical Chicago home has a many pounds of combustible toxic plastic and vinyl (many, many pounds if they have kids). A couple pounds of plastic wire jacket buried inside the walls is not going to produce a more toxic fire.

In 2001 the Chicago code was updated and all of the "notes", which had the effect of law, were eliminated. Instead they took a copy of the NEC and edited it to say the same "all steel" rules.

Another example of the power of the union is the fact that legally, no city is allowed to edit the text of the NEC. The NEC should only be customized by the addition of a local supplement. Chicago edited the actual text of the NEC and thumbed its nose that the rest of the country. Now Chicago electricans think that they are reading the NEC when they quote from the Chicago code. The formatting, numbering, and text are nearly identical, but the real words are much different.

I personally have "outgrown" putting receptactles horizontally. As someone else mentioned, the
reason I was given for keeping the Neutral Leg up is that if something falls on a plug that is not fully flush against the outlet, it hits the Neutral spade. A verticle receptactle would produce a crowbar short across both spades. As far as the orientation for install or maintenace, I have developed a habit of putting tape all the way around an outlet, over the screws, when I install or work on it. So if I bump the metal box, it doesn't matter which side bumps.

Ironically, I prefer to wire receptacles with the hot side up, so it's easy to keep your eye on it with a metal box. Still, the other reason makes more sense I suppose.

Wow, I knew that the situation in Chicago must have had something to do with the union because I can't see how builders make any money on new homes under those rules. I guess they just pass it on to the purchaser. You are right, though about other combustible items like PVC plumbing, sheet flooring, telephone wire, etc.

Wow, that just made me think of something. Do they not allow the use of PVC conduit either?

So the horizontal receptacle thing is just a preference that took off in popularity and stayed there?

PVC plumbing has only been legal for a few years in Chicago. And only for waste, not supply. Probably it was held back by the unions with the same "toxic fumes" excuse. A few years ago soil pipes had to be either cast iron or solid copper. Some homes have 4" solid copper soil pipes ($$$). I almost had to get one when I had a cast iron pipe crack. I was able to repair it until PVC became legal.

PVC conduit is legal only for certain underground applications. Like encased in concrete. Otherwise you have to dig down much deeper then for steel conduit. Most people use steel rather than do the extra digging. There is not a chance that PVC conduit will become legal for interior exposed work in Chicago anytime soon.

As you can guess Chicago is slow to change their ways. They make up their own code and do not adopt the NEC in any form or fashion. I think that once the practice of installing receptactles horizontally became common it was followed like it was the Chicago law. Because the code is so goofy, it's not wise to do anything differently then the last job that passed inspection.

I mentioned on another thread that in Idaho the union got a simple 3 sentence bill passed to "update the code" and put every type of wire needing a permit and a licensed installer. We got wind of it, formed a coalition from all over the state, and got it soundly defeated (actually, the electrical board had egg on their face and pulled their rules before it went for final approval the next year). It would have made it illegal for an average citizen to hook up a surround sound at his neighbors or put in a coax jack at a rental property he owned.

Bad law, special interest, and the legislature, once informed, saw it for what it was and were very supportive of our efforts (once educated).