atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services T1's, CSU's and DSU's can I move smart jack ?

Customer is moving in the same building from one unit to another .

whole building is feed from telco at one end of the building

Can I move the smart jack from his current location to the new location or do I need to get Telco involved ?

Smart jack is telco property and not to be touched by us infidels.

thats what I always thought , but recently I was involved in a project where I saw other interconnect types moving them .

in this case , I would think nothing of moving the copper demark (in fact I just quoted the guy who is presently next door to move his service to the area my customer is now occupying, along with moving his phone system and tying the two spaces together )

I've done this for years , as long as it all feeds off the same terminal

I've just never done it with a circuit

They have really cracked down in our area on touching their smart jacks. They have even gone as far as to put tamper proof entry tape over the lock cylinders and all 3 sides on the enclosure to make sure no one is opening them. :bang:

wow. around here they leave them on the walls
I was at a customer site and the smartjack was left open!

yea they abandon them around here too , also not unusal to find one half open .


not unusual to find several abandoned on a old backboard

hands off infidels :rofl:

Are we talking about smart jacks as in RJ48's or the telco's network termination unit? There's a huge difference there.

Good point Ed!! I was just thinking the same thing.

the white box with the cards in it .

That's what I thought. Yeah, they get pretty angry when you mess with those. You'll definintely need to get VZ out there for that one.

thats what Ive always done , but seeing the "other guys " doing it I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything

The only problem is that knowing Verizon, they won't simply move it. They will order up an entire new circuit to parallel the existing one and then transfer the service to it. Such efficiency.

Admittedly, I have moved them many times and nobody said a word, but today's Verizon isn't the same company it used to be, so I am not willing to risk it. Just plan on this process taking a full 21-day circuit build interval to be accomplished.

ED...do not forget the disco in error, or the failure to swing the old lines to the new ckt. Also the ticket will need to go to cable maint. since they will not have any spare pairs that quilify for high cap ckts.

You're right, but please don't get me "stah-ted" on that issue, Anthony. My therapist has me keeping the soap box under control for now, but triggers might make me drag it out against my therapist's orders.

It seems like the provider could simply extend or relocate their demarc versus building parallel circuits. I hope we're not seeing big headaches on the Verizon.

Ed, "Stah-ted?" You mean like trying to "Pahk yah kah in thah gah rahge?"

No, Mike. It was meant with more of a New York flex on things, as in "you tawlkin ta me?".

the 21 day is what concerns me , along with the $$$

customer needs to move by 4/9

I told him I can have cabling ready by Monday

certainly I can find the pairs and move it

maybe my question really is will the circuit come back up ?

and whats worst case if I do move it and it doesn't come back up ?

it gets reported as trouble and we go from there ?

(maybe I should try moving it Monday

if it comes up we know were good to go

if not I move it back and report it as trouble )

skip555
They work on trouble tickets faster than a move!
Makes you go hmmmm! :shhh:

If you move it, don't do your usual quality workmenship. If they come in and see a nice neat install, it will tip them off that someone else relocated their equipment.

Could you possibly just extend the circuit until Verizon can move the smart jack?

That's my thought too, just extend it to where you want it. I've extended them several hundred feet with no problems.

thats a thought , no sure about distances though Im guessing it would be 3- 400 feet . (I can measure it this weekend when we pull cable )

how far can I extend it ?



its on a plywood backboard about 24"x24"

so I could just move the whole thing intact

If there is a CSU to regenerate the signal 400 feet isn't out of line. I've moved them 300 and put a hard loop on the end of the 300 feet and run test patterns clean to the hard loop.

I see bill popped in while I was posting, so extending it should work

nice thing is it looks like Ill be taking over service for the guy thats moving into the space , so Ill retain control of the phone equipment /demark in both locations

I went and took a close look today , customer wants to move this week .

circuit is with CLEC time warner , there telling him 21 days or for 800 they can expedite to 14 days .

distance to extend would be in the 700' - 800' will it work over that distance ?

would I gain anything by doubling up on cable pairs ?

That's a long ways to extend a circuit. Are you putting a CSU on it? If so look at the line build out on the CSU to see what it can handle, a CSU regenerates, cleans up, the signal. If the cable is in place and you can just hook it up you could put a hard loop on it and look at the lights on the NIU to see if they indicate errors or sync loss. You would gain a little doubling the pairs, but not enough to make a difference in my opinion. You're better off with a larger gauge than doubling pairs.

I'd find if it's a LEC smart jack or TWTCs. If it's on net then TWTC can beat the 21 days and in our area really don't care if you move their smart jack as long as it doesn't cause problems. I think a call to their service manager and explain that the circuit is being moved within the same facility and not to a new location may expedite the service. That being said there are also jumper options on most NIU cards for length build out. I don't think the customer would want to leave their circuit terminated in another suite. That time frame is going to be tough if you have to rely on the LEC or TWTC to play ball.

I'm a little off on the terminology ., my experience is the lec or clec brings it up and we connect

I'll describe what I have .

my customer is last unit in the blg , verizon terminal is on the far end . 500 feet of cable from demarc on the wall to the terminal (according to the markings on the cable )

they are moving to a smaller unit about halfway down the bldg (so I'm guessing 250')

Ive got two rj48 jacks so can I put one on a couple of pairs at current location then connect two pairs at verizon terminal to the cable going to the new unit

as to equip I am leaving the white box with the cards that verizon installed in place at the old location

there is another white box that the CLEC guy I deal with calls a "connect reach " it breaks out to dial tone via a rj21x 66 block for voice and has a Ethernet port for data

is this what your referring to a CSU?

thats what Ill be moving .

running new cable to the 500' length would be a pain , maybe I could pull something heavier on the 250' leg if that would help

this would be temporary as they will move the circuit to the new location in 21 days or so

obviously they need phone and Internet in the meantime

Sounds like the box the CLEC provided breaks out the channels of the T1 so I'd say it's some type of channel bank with a built in CSU. That's just my guess as I'm not familiar with the equip name. It should have line build out settings to extend the range. If there is any way you can check with them they may even talk you through the line build out settings, they are usually in feet from the NIU.

I'm 99% sure it is the LEC's smart jack. I've never seen a CLEC provide a smart jack here in Florida.

I say try it and see. Pull it one evening and take the CSU/DSU to the new suite. See if you're getting any errors. If you do, put it back and tell the customer he'll have to wait.

I agree with nfc, you've nothing to loose. It'd be nice to have the build out info in case you had errors so you could change the build out to see if it fixed the errors.

who would I contact for the build out info and how could I access it ?

I'll give moving it a try if it doesn't come back up then its a repair issue , right ?

In Texas if Time Warner has an on net building they provide a smart jack in the suite extended from the head in. You Florida boys have to deal with Verizon though. We get Southwestern Bell...no wait SBC...wait at&t. :shrug:

So do you Texas boys, just not in your neck of the woods! DFW is full of Verizon territory (Plano, Garland, etc).

The box your clec guy calls a "connect reach" sounds like an IAD and that is your demarc! Now because your customer has planned poorly you may be caught up in something you may regret!

how will I regret it ?

If I move it and it works great , if not oh well

I explained to the customer that I MIGHT not be able but I would try

I have a long history with this customer top of my head at least 15 years

Two words come to mind.. tariff violations.

I dont see it as applicable based on what I see here

what am I missing ?

looks like it would only apply if I where reselling the service not moving it

14903. Tariff violations


I'm not trying to be argumentative here I am interested in all the ramifications

which is why I'm here first

No, not if it's an IAD like you're thinkin'... The NID (Smart Jack) ends the regulated piece. No tarriff worries there.

If an IAD or CSU as it sounds like to me, you’re clear to try and move it… Distance MAY bite ya, but it’s worth a shot, right.

And to answer you original question my due diligent LEC employee answer is, “NO!” No, you may NOT move the NID (Smart Jack) but thanks for asking. … I always plead ignorance when I moved ‘em back in my days as being a CPE & cabling guy. Give that a try, it worked VERY well for me.

A Google of "ConnectReach" found this:

Lucent Technologies today announced that Time Warner Telecom Inc. (Nasdaq: TWTC) is deploying Lucent's ConnectReach(TM) integrated access device. Designed to support all the communications needs of small to mid-sized businesses, the integrated access device delivers broadband applications across the "last mile" - the link between a service provider's central office and a customer.


Looks like you ARE talking about an IAD.

I don't know if Cali is much different from where you guys are, but I've moved many of these devices. Granted there was never 250 - 500' involved, but the guy who suggested getting your cabling in place, moving it one evening, and trying it out is on the money. If the new suite is actually assigned out of a different MPOE then you can let TWTC make the permanent re-assignment on their schedule for their records purposes. But you can get the customer in service on his time frame and be a hero.

Here's one for you ,I ran two Cat6 cables requested by customer to extend the demarc from the smart jack to the router ,The cables test fine,But traffic causes them to fail,I can move the router to the smart jack and use the extensions to the switch and everything works fine,But I cannot use as demarc extensions,only about a 100 ft run,I am using a 568B wiring configuration on my extensions ,Do you think it would make a difference using 568A ,I have others a lot farther working as extensions and at least one on Cat6 about 300ft. from smart jack,But it is AT&T and this one is V-frickinizon.

the telco was able to get there and install the new circuit before I had a chance to get back and try extending things .


turned out the clec contact was someone Ive worked with a lot in the past so I asked her about moving it

she said that since the occupancy was changing there would be 911 problems (911 would dispatch to the wrong suite ) and she advised against moving things in the future

the tech that came out form the clec was also someone I had worked with in the past . as to distance he said he ran across one recently where they had strung out a full 1000'box of cat 5 cable to extend the smart jack and it was working just fine

so I guess the answer is , not to move the smart jack but if you have to move , try extending as far as you need and see what happens

Gene

I wonder if its the cat6 . I would pull some cat 3 and see what happens

Only thing is you use a cat5 patch cord to come out of smart jack,and as I stated it is working in another location ,only ,three times the distance on the working one which is AT&T ,I wonder if because this one is an AT&T service ,installed by Verfrickinizon,that that is the real problem.

what ive seen their only using two pair coming out of the smart jack , as I recall cat3 is all thats required as to cable .

I have extra cat3 pairs going to the router location from the demarc ,I will try ,but the smart jacks here have cat5 from smart jack to router,Iwill try it,I asuummed it made a transition in the smart jack because of the Cat5 connection required,all the router connections use a cat5 also,Do you think it goes to the router on white blue,I assummed it was a data connection using w/g g/w o/w w/o.Thanks

the one I just moved had a cat 5 patch cord coming out off the smart jack , they cut a patch cord and punched two pair down to a 66 block to a cat 3 cable going to the equip room .(extending it )

there they did the reverse (used the other half of the patch cord , two pair punched down to the 66 block and then to the "connect reach"

( I didnt do it , just reporting how it was done }

T-1 pins 1,2 and 4,5 so depending on your wiring scheme, w/or and w/bl pr or w/gr and w/bl pr.

I checked and as justbill said it comes out of smart jack on 2pairs 1&2 4&5 , I spoke with a freind of mine ,who was with AT&t special circuits for 20+ years ,He recommended I move the smart jack ,use one pair from demarc on my cat6 and move the whole smartjack to eliminate the fingerpointing,These GC's allways wonder why I want the smart jack by the rack? Go figure. Thanks

Well like Ed has said many times...the OSP stuff is cat nothing, coming into a building, usually being distributed at cat 3 at best throughout, then to closets where it is cross connected with jumper wire. Go figure