atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums General General Telephone & Systems Information Why NOT to buy an IP system

Read PMCOOK above again.

Here is what i think.

Voip is more expensive no doubt.
Customers are going to buy it anyway.

If not from you then some data guy turned voice guy.

If you were the voip guy...they would buy from you because you by default have much more telphony knowledge than the data guy.

With higher prices comes higher margins now and on MACS.

We know that math doesnt always hold true.
The long run it will as you get better.

You can OFFER both TDM and VOIP.

You have no need to argue the points because you do so based on knowledge which is your advantage.

This is just high level but you get my drift.

The money is bigger yet you require 50% or more up front anyway. I use to do 75% up front.

Adjust everything based on dollar amount.

Its really deeper than this but the average interconnect owner needs position in todays marketplace and that is in my opinion, seller of both TDM and VoIP.

Since biz isnt what it use to be...learn VoIP.

My book will provide many paths and insights.

Im not a know it all.

Im well on my way to going from a barely fluent in data trad phone guy to infiltrating the elite data guys world.

It isnt without sacrifice.
I have been bleeding for a year.
My wife is owed so much it isnt funny.

There's a lot of painting with a broad brush going on here. Not all (or even most) computer guys are idiots or egomaniacs.

I'll say this much, having installed a Shoretel system just over two years ago, my user's really like it. I know because I've asked them about it. I did a bit of research into various IP and TDM systems when I was looking and found the Shoretel to fit my company's needs, though I will say it was expensive to setup properly (though not nearly as expensive as Cisco).

I happened to be moving offices at the time, so we needed a new network infrastructure anyway. We do have Cisco PoE switches installed with multiple fiber backbone switches to mitigate a single point of failure. This was an expensive option to be sure, but something we were investing in anyway. I am pretty proficient at networking in general, but did hire on a Cisco consultant to setup the VLAN, QoS, etc. I figure it would pay to do it right the first time, plus I was in the middle of moving our data center and didn't have time to learn the intricacies of VoIP. I haven't had an issue in two years with any of the Cisco gear or experienced any call quality problems.

The entire building is on a generator system, with server-room sized UPS to handle the load while the generator kicks on. Any remote switches - those not in our server room - are protected with a smaller UPS and tied to the generator power. No downtime due to power failures. This should be part of any solid network design.

We have dynamic trunks from Paetec, which have been very reliable. No quality issues or down time. In fact, we had a lightening strike take out 3 of our 4 trunks (fried the smart jack cards) and could still make calls/surf the Internet. Granted it was slow, but frankly I noticed before any of my users.

I did order a separate PRI for our many fax machines, and some POTS lines for a fax server. Most faxes are extensions on the Shoretel system, but I didn't want to mess around with IP trunking for our fax services.

The Shoretel has had a few shortcomings like any system. I don't particularly like their music on queue options for the Contact Center, for example. Overall though, our users love it. We run Citrix, so our folks can use the call manager pretty much anywhere they have an Internet connection. Some of our Call Center agents put the phone out of the way and simply use the call manager software to make/receive calls. I find the call manager very intuitive. Not sure if this is the same with all IP phone systems. And the management of the system is so much better than I had in our old office (though that was a ROLM 9751, so not much of a comparison).

I haven't had a lot of down time, though I do periodically reboot the Shoretel server. We did have a problem with a memory leak on one the the switches when used for music on hold, which has since been corrected. I have upgraded the software myself to realize new features in the system. That's a boon to someone like me who's used to upgrading other systems.

One thing I found particularly useful was the fact that when we moved, there was a small group of folks left in our old building. Since we moved our phone service, their DIDs were now served in our new building. It was rather easy to give them some shoretel phones and have them access dial tone over our WAN. They have the same extensions and are happy not having to install a separate phone system in the old location (we no longer owned the server room part of the old building where the ROLM system was installed). No voice quality issues there either. We didn't install a PoE switch at that site, opting to add power bricks for the few phones there.

I also like the fact that a couple of our remote employees can easily have extension on our HQ system. They use the "Office Anywhere" setup to route calls to their home phone or cell phone without any trouble. They can double-click an extension in the Call Manager and the system will call their target phone and then connect them to a local extension. Pretty handy. Plus, if they call out, the caller ID shows whatever number we program for that extension at our main site.

Maybe some of this stuff is easily doable on non-IP phone systems. In our case we're very happy with the IP phone system we have. I think a lot of this has to do with the intuitive nature of the user interface for the Shoretel system.

I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all solution where TDM or VoIP is always going to work. Where there is a robust network in place, VoIP could make sense. If the infrastructure is weak, a TDM or hybrid system might be the answer.

I remember the first Inter-Tel 5000 I installed with IP endpoints on a POE switch. After mounting a 1U chassis into the rack, and plugging in patch cords for the LAN and PRI, I kept looking for what I had missed. No Amphenol’s, no cross-connects – it was just weird.

I also remember asking, many years ago, why would you ever need to put a phone system onto the network. Who knew?

Since this thread seems to be on the pessimistic side of things, here's my viewpoint skewed to that demographic

The biggest problems I see with TDM and Digital systems (generally):
1) It can take days, weeks, months, to add lines to a non-VoIP system, depending on the PSTN demarc type (T1, POTS, etc).
2) New features (not fixes) are usually forklift upgrades
3) Everything is tied to number of ports, not bandwidth
4) Cost for Telco is usually more expensive then Data (think multiple offices)
5) A digital system can only extend to it's local devices, or otherwise limited to the reach of it's interconnects
6) A MAC order must be done to move an extension
7) Often seems like it requires a wall of add-on products to get it to do what the customer really wants (IVR, MoH, etc)
8) Doesn't necessarily play well with other systems


And here is what I don't like about VoIP, and it's variants:
1) Economy of Scale non-existent in small business
2) Requires proper internal network (not necessarily more maintenance, or split network)
3) More complex, making diagnosing more like engineering then trouble shooting
4) Requires quality, broadband internet
5) Router/NAT issues tend to pop-up
6) Not all features work the same (SLA for example)
7) Artificial Limits I.E. Licensing and Subscriptions
8) Potential ancillary costs not anticipated at quote
9) Some SIP "Carriers" can be a real joke!!!

Wish I could comment on Hybrids, but I have never dealt with one. I guess it would be correct to say it's the best and worst of both worlds, like a monkey in the middle. I guess if I was out selling phone to the world I would probably try to pitch a Hybrid most of the time, that way they can have digital simplicity where it makes sense, and the fancy VoIP stuff when they want. Seems like the best option from where I stand.

There are some very strong use case scenarios for VoIP, but they almost always apply to enterprise use or at best medium sized business'. Most small business, which is the bulk of business', will never reach those kinds of levels. Nowhere can this be better seen then in the uncanny resemblance that SS7 and SIP have to each other, with the exception of SS7 circuit-switching the audio and SIP packet-switching it.

About the only major selling point I see for VoIP in a small business is a case where you don't have (or don't want) a brick-and-mortar office. Your average "Executive Office Hotel" comes to mind here. We got a lot of them around here that lawyers buy into. 95% of their work is done at home in their garage, but when they need to meet a client they schedule time to occupy a suite. They have all recently gotten into the virtual-office deal where a receptionist sits at the lobby and answers your line for you. She says whatever greeting you want and can check to see if your phone is DND or not. The rest of the time you get a soft-phone at home or a hard-phone on the desk, and the callers get a simple voicemail drop box after hours. It's all about perception I guess.

I have had IT people tell me how easy phonesystems are that we down loaded the manual off the internet, than ask me several technical questions, my answer was download it off the internet you said phonesystems were easy. By the way they were easy questions. I am quoting a hybrid tomorrow.

I think you guys misunderstood me.

Perhaps my terminaology wasnt the best using hybrid which we use as a system with features of PBX and key.

I meant Hybrid as it relates to a voice/data guy.

A guy that can do both. jeffMoss for instance as well as many of you here.

The hybrid (meaning voice/data guy).

You all know telephony.
Data? It can have many meanings.

Routing?
Switching?
Database?

You dont have to know it all.

80% of the internet runs on Cisco gear and you would be surprised how much the competition is like Cisco from a CLI view.

In my opinion, CCNP level knowledge is more than the phone guy will need. This is a Professional level routing and switching certification.
I do not plan to go beyond this level as it relates to R/S.

The truth is that a huge majority could get by with CCNA level knowledge. Its associate level but let me tell you, its no joke and you will know a huge amount with that certification.

A CCNA level person knows what they dont know and that makes it a good place to be.

Sorry fellas...I meant BECOME as good at data as you are at telephony.

I think CCNA is a must for you guys.
Some of you will fall in love with the subject.
Some of you will get through half of it and realize I was right.
Some of you will go through the course and realize I was right.

Im 45 years old and can say I have always loved what I do. It has never been as much fun as it is now since I have begun the journey.

My only regret is not doing it sooner.

If I can do it, I know you can.

Im willing to help you because I have been through it and hope to make your journey smarter and smoother than mine.

Seeing the feedback makes me thing about traditional PBx and voip systems. I ran a asterisk voip server at home for several years. It used one the old legacy x100p cards. Had nothing but issues with the card but rarely the sip DID from my provider. It is sitting not being used right now, as some one states, takes engineering to set it up right after I upgraded from version 1.4 to 1.6. I will ask in one of the forums on this site how to get it up and running again. But to me, what is important is reliability! I do not need to make redundant service calls simply because its a voip,server,dsl issue. I made contact with one of my old clients who had another company install asterisk in there office. I asked if it was the right choice for them. They said no, it has lots of issues and next time, will go with a different system. That asterisk company has sold out. Wonder why?

BTW, I tool my ccna academy way back in 1997 when Cisco had just announced the voip concept back then. I remember thinking to my self, plug a phone into a router??? Weird! How would that work

I appreciate the postings to this topic that have presented the pros and cons. We have done cabling for several customers that are using VOIP systems. Most of these companies have had little or no problems and express satisfaction with their voip systems. Only one of these companies has reported problems with the initial setup up of a site to site system. I haven't heard lately if the problems have been resolved. I suspect that the success of voip systems is dependent upon the quality of voip providers and the IT professionals that setup and maintain the voip system. We just lost 2 customers we have had for several years to voip systems. I don't know anything about the costs, short or long term, but I do know that they were offered "free" phones and the ability to pay for the service monthly. I wished them well and will be interested in seeing how it works for them.