atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums General General Telephone & Systems Information The Shift to Data has already occurred.....

What's your point? I doubt either of these two read this forum. We don't wear "I hate VoIP" T shirts. Our customers know full well that we are an Avaya Business Partner and I'm also sure they know Avaya has VoIP solutions.

My point is that we have been their telecom vendor for years yet the first customer didn't even ASK us about it, the second won't even TELL us what they are doing, they apparently went straight to their CGs.

To me this is a strong indication as to the direction this industry is turning. It's not a shift to data, but a shift in who will be providing telecom services in the future. Companies don't want to deal with two different people, they are seeing that they can have both voice and data handled by one person.

So it looks like we all will have to become CGs in order to remain in the telecom business.

-Hal

Whether we use TDM or VoIP for our new phone system, we'll still need a qualified installer to manage the install of the new system. It doesn't make sense to me to rely on someone only familiar with data to do that. I mean, I'm familiar enough with routing packets, but I wouldn't know how to program a phone switch.

I work for a company with multiple offices where the IT department is centrally located. We'll certainly be using VoIP trunking to connect the offices. VoIP to the desktop seems to make sense to me from the standpoint of being able to manage the phones remotely (do MAC work). Any thoughts?

You should be able to do manage any modern phone system remotely, TDM or VoIP.

Whether we use TDM or VoIP for our new phone system, we'll still need a qualified installer to manage the install of the new system.

Yours is the voice of common sense. Unfortunately common sense doesn't prevail against billion dollar advertising, customers with no technical knowledge and stagnating IT companies eager to cash in on this new found gravy train.

-Hal

I understand the frustration with the shift to VoIP regardless of whether it is appropriate or not. Some of that emotion may be recognized by customers just as clearly as if you actually wore an "I hate VoIP" T-shirt. If Telecommunications Professionals want to consider VoIP as the enemy, then at least know your enemy and have ammunition to fight it. Lashing out with accusations ("stagnating IT companies"?) is NOT effective. To the customer investigating VoIP it isn't the IT company that sounds stagnant. Treating your customers as if they have "no technical knowledge" when they think they do will not build credibility with them, especially if they think you are being condescending.

Instead, talk up the strengths that the TDM system you are selling has over VoIP for a small business. Explain how a solution that works for a 10,000 person company with dedicated Telecommunications and Information Technology staff is not appropriate for a 25-person business.

For example, my company benefits from being able to unplug an IP phone and plug it in to any other jack in our office. The benefit justifies the cost because larger companies have people moving around all of the time and can afford to connect every jack to a Power over Ethernet (PoE) port. It may sound like a benefit to someone at a small company, but it is only going to work if they have the infrastructure. Even then, how often are they going to use that feature anyway?

I am one of the dreaded (hated?) CGs. I have a Cat5e LAN in my house and a Partner ACS that I have no intention of replacing. If my ACS processor died tomorrow I'd buy another ACS. Why? It works great, it is already overkill for the application, and I don't want to be a network administrator. Educate your customers so they see that, too.

I appreciate the continuing education that I receive from the Telecommunication Professionals on this board. I hope that I can provide some help in return.

-Rob

I work on Voip enabled systems everyday. This includes teleworkers with remote sets and sites tied together via VoIP transport. As I have stated before that works fine.

As far as easy MAC work I don't know of a TDM system produced today that doesn't have some sort of Auto set relocation program. Those that don't can be wired via patch panels for easier enduser Moves, Adds or Changes.

The major problem today is this.. A recent discussion held about recurring licensing fees resulted in the following thoguhts. A TDM system deliver 12 sets X 1 PRI and 4 port voice mail would cost the customer (X) amount of dollars installed. Done cut and dried unless changes or additions are needed.

However in 365 days alot of IP to the desktop products require a renewal of licenses. Based on the 12X23 scenario previously mentioned install one manufacturer would charge the customer another $7000 for licenses and software subscription. Guess what happens 365 days later again? What TDM manufacturer REQUIRES this? Where is the "savings" if it requires 5-7K annually to keep it running?

Alot of us longer time (notice I didn't say older ) installers equate this to highway robbery. The factories keep saying look the the recurring revenue stream and we say at what expense...I can't look somebody in the eye and tell them they are going to experince great savings in MAC work when I know at the end of every year I show up like the IRS shaking more money out of them.

That pretty much sums it up. Thanks for a more realistic view of what many people are fearing. The sad thing is that most of the people buying these systems don't ask questions, they just look at the system purchase as "keeping up with the Jones".

My kids have always insisted upon buying shoes that cost a half-paycheck, knowing that a $20 pair of shoes from Wal*Mart will cover their feet just fine. It's not what the shoes do, it's how they look or what they saw on TV/magazine ads. They don't know if these shoes are good or bad; they just absolutely, positively MUST have them because that's what everyone else has.

Back to the original subject: Then, the company who sold the product they insisted upon having now becomes a thief when it comes time to pay their annual dues. "Why didn't you tell us this?" is the question, which should be followed by "I tried to tell you, but you didn't want to listen".

Just like with kids, people who insist upon buying products such as these need to be treated accordingly.

I am a telecommunications consultant for mostly large companies. Usually, large companies means call centers and AVAYA is king of that world. I would estimate 80% of large companies here use AVAYA. Only one uses Cisco and thats becuase their IT and telecom department are the same people (who happen to be Cisco guys).

My biggest frustration with VOIP (aside from Asterisk) is that VOIP is presented as all or nothing (you are not using VOIP if you are not using VOIP phones) For a large business, a $500+ Cisco IP phone versus a $250 AVAYA TDM phone x10,000+ does not make sence. Add in the fact that telecom departments are under funded with hardware thats 20+ years old (yet for some reason we are held to higher standards then the network guys who have lower SLA and much bigger budgets) and that large business means call centers and you wont see systems from network companies moving in this area any time soon.

I use Cisco Call manager and it takes me 10 minutes for me to do something that takes me 20 seconds to do in AVAYA. This is just one example of that network companies dont know voice or why this is such a big deal. At one company they can have 400+ mac tickets for 2 people per week doing software only.

Not only do VOIP only systems from network companies take forever to do mac and cost to much for large companies because of the cost of phones and servers. They also have poor if even any IVRs, and CMS systems. That is a big deal.

The same camp that is pushing all voip systems, voip trunks (yuck) and asterisk (double yuck) are the same people who are pushing linux (becuase its "better"). People dont like change, the last time I checked almost all PCs run Windows despite being "bad". Same thing with PBX systems. Seasoned call center managers EXPECT AVAYA CentreVu and they dont give a rip if its linux, voip, open source, etc. Same thing with windows. People dont like change. AVAYA is not going anywhere in big business.

I use VOIP every day on AVAYA Definity systems, parts of which are 20+ years old (circuit packs, 2500 phones). However, I and most large companies that have telecom people who know that they are doing do not see VOIP as all or nothing. They see it as a new tool to reduce cost and increase features. I use VOIP for teleworkers via their laptops, outsource call centers and to send calls all over the world. I rarely use or see a VOIP phone in a large company. If a VOIP phone it used it is becuase to wire a new leased floor for TDM costs more then the phones.

However, for smaller companies VOIP could be attractive. Becuase you can offset the processing power of the pbx to the phone. The venture ip system is a perfect example. For large business no matter if you use ip phones or not, you still need lots of processing power (IVR, vectors, cti screen pops, voice apps, cms, etc). You cannot offset the processing power on to the phone.

They way I would present VOIP to small or mid size companies is the same way I present it to large companies. VOIP is an additional tool for your PBX. A small company can use it to have some people work from home, a exec to use a laptop for confrence calls, send calls between buildings for free, etc.

TDM, is not going away anytime soon. However, I would still offer VOIP as a option for the above features so when they get the temptation to go voip you can say you already are using it.

If you want to know how to market a TDM system in artificial "VOIP world" look no further then the AVAYA Definity. They are a text book example of how to compete against Cisco, Shoretel, 3Com, etc. and they are winning.

For those customer you loose to a VOIP only system (even more so if they used VOIP trunks), they will come back. When the VOIP trunk goes down, and the IT guy says it will be fixed in a few hours or days (or the VOIP provider goes bankrupt). Or when they want advanced features (real IVR, CMS, voice apps) and the IT guy says they will get a "solution" (the second most over used and over rated corporate buzz word after India) in weeks, months or years.

If Telecommunications Professionals want to consider VoIP as the enemy, then at least know your enemy and have ammunition to fight it. Lashing out with accusations ("stagnating IT companies"?) is NOT effective.

I don't think any of us consider VoIP as the enemy, just the way it's being marketed and implemented.

I use the phrase "stagnating IT companies" because that really is the case. The computer boom encouraged many people to consider a lucrative career in IT and, like the law profession, the glut has caused quite a few to go belly up. I've seen several CGs close up shop because of the competition and either go to work for another IT company or do something different entirely. So all is not rosey in IT land and telecom is just the ticket many IT companies need to keep afloat.

-Hal

It's interesting that you guys mention software renewal costs with respect to VoIP systems. On the data side this is just a cost of doing business. I can't imagine my boss would bat an eye at recurring licensing costs for a phone system as he sees this all the time with our software systems.

NFC and RBF, I'm so used to doing MAC work on my old ROLM system, I forget that there are probably much easier ways to do this on the newer TDM systems.