atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums TDM Business Telephone Systems Panasonic Telephones & Systems Panasonic VB 43050 compatible

I'm the part time computer guy for Montessori In Redlands, and they've asked me to help upgrade their phone system.

They currently have a Panasonic DBS VB-43050 and they have Active Voice Repartee software running under OS/2.

They were quoted a Nortel system that's about twice as much as they have budgeted, so we're looking at upgrading the software to a Windows version and perhaps finding some more modern compatible phones.

My questions are

1) is it possible to get just the software upgraded? Active Voice referred me to their dealer list which is out of date (disconnected phone#s) and the dealers I talked to don't sell software separately.

2) are there compatible phones out there or are we stuck with the older Panasonic phones (VB-42210B and a single VB-43233B).

3) where's a good place to learn more about this stuff? i.e. phone systems in general, terminology, etc.

Do a panasonic KX-TDA system the DBS has not been
made new for some time!!

Unfortunately the whole DBS product line has been discontinued as of 2000. As far as an upgrade for the software, the best you could do is get them updated to a 1999-2000 version with the current cabinet. No new releases since.

Also, the DBS line of telephones (VB-42000, 43000, and 44000 series) will only work with the S-DBS 616, DBS 32, 40,72,96 systems. They are also compatible with the Panasonic 576 and 576 HD systems. They are not compatible with any other system.

No windows version of software for this system ever existed. There was DBS manager that offered a direct or dial-up connection for programming via hyperterminal.

QUOTE: They were quoted a Nortel system that's about twice as much as they have budgeted

If it is a brand new Nortel equipment with current software of course it's going to cost money. Did they go cheap on the IT side? Do they have fast PC's, Laser printer's, Laptop's, switches, and such? Are they still using Windows 95 for their OS still, or are they on a current version of windows? How about the cost of software licences for all of their machines? I imagine they have a lot of $$$ in keeping the IT side current and up to date.

If they want the same performance and reliabilty out of a phone system, especially from company with the name recognition that Nortel has, and they are going thru an authorized Nortel channel partner, it won't be cheap.

QUOTE: 3) where's a good place to learn more about this stuff? i.e. phone systems in general, terminology, etc.

It's best to learn by experience. There is no better teacher. Reading manuals will get you familiar with teminology for a particular system.

I wasn't trying to bust your chops here, just looking at it from a different point of view. I Hope the Panasonic info was helpful.


:thumb:

What's a comparable KX-TDA system? We need about 4 lines and 32 extensions.

How does the Panasonic compare to the Nortel?

Edited for pricing. Posting prices is not allowed on the open forum.

are you asking us to quote a system in open forum?

most of us now use 110 blocks much
higher density in a a 3rd the area!

Not a price quote, no. Just features. I'm still getting used to terminology, so when looking at ads for equipment, it's difficult to be sure if "port" is the same as "extension", etc. What is "Caller ID ANI and CNIP", "ISDN Primary Rate Interface (PRI) with QSIG", "Uniform Call Distribution (UCD)", etc. Do I need them? Are they in the VB43050 we currently have?

go to www.panasonic.com/csd and buy a newton's telecom dictionary a to z breakdown of telecom terms if you decide to do proper RFP request for proposal

"Not a price quote, no. Just features. I'm still getting used to terminology, so when looking at ads for equipment, it's difficult to be sure if "port" is the same as "extension", etc. What is "Caller ID ANI and CNIP", "ISDN Primary Rate Interface (PRI) with QSIG", "Uniform Call Distribution (UCD)", etc. Do I need them? Are they in the VB43050 we currently have? "

are they available on your present system unlikely
pri is a 23 phone numbers from one pair of wires
ucd is uniform call distribution
voip trunks voip exts great voicemail
tapi screenpops yes you may need them some day

Peter, pricing is not allowed on the open forum.

Is this company supposed to sell this equipment to your customer at cost with no mark up? How about the installation labor and training? How about all the classes and courses that this company pays for to keep their techs up to speed on these systems and the software releases?

QUOTE: Oh, another question -- on these newer systems, are the connections to extensions done with punch-down blocks (or whatever they're called) or RJ11 connectors? In other words, given that the wiring is already in place, how hard is it to install a new system?

You are going to have a few problems. How hard is it to install a new system for someone with absolutely no experience? Let me come to your house, dismantle your car engine, leave all the parts in a box, leave you a manual, and have you put it back together. Could you do it? Sure you could probably figure it out eventually. But, could you figure it out before you needed it to go to work tomorrow? That's what position you are putting this customer in. What happens at 8:00 in the morning and they expect phone service and you can't get things to work? Are they just going to wait around for 2-3 days with no phones while they wait for you to figure it out?

Have you been honest with this customer and told them that you don't even have the knowledge of the basics of telephony?

yes how are you supposed to help them when
you clearly don't know a thing about what we do??

PM sent.

Take it easy guys! First of all, they are not a customer, they are my employer, and they want me to do some research to find out how reasonable the quotes we get are. If I buy a car, I should be able to change the oil, change a tire, tune the engine, etc, as well as be able to drive it. And I should know enough to determine whether I need a 4WD with 6000LB towing capacity to drive 1 mile on flat paved streets in SoCal (no snow) to buy groceries or not.

Second of all, the quote we have included labor. If my employer bought the equipment and paid the company who gave us the quote the same amount of labor to install it, we'd save $5K.

Third, this is a small non-profit school we're talking about, not some $100M/yr corporation, so every little bit helps. $5K can buy a lot of stuff for a school, including some up-to-date classroom computers (instead of old donated computers running Win95), new books and other educational materials.

Finally, while what you do does require some training, it is not impossible for someone else to learn it well enough to discuss it intelligently in order to make sound purchasing decisions. I'm a computer programmer with 30+ yrs of experience, and I have installed home phones, and I've seen some really schlock installations by phone companies (worst was a 1/2" thick cable for a 5-line phone run right down the center of an office wall, completely ignoring the cable that was already in the wall when the building was constructed).

Having said all that, I do appreciate the advice given so far -- keep it coming!

installing a phone in your house and putzing
with computers for 30 years hardly makes you the right guy to be a consultant for a school for special needs or for that matter a any school
you may want to just tell tell your boss that you
do not know enough about this stuff to speak intelligently because I know plenty of CG's
that cant even pin out a data jack properly
much less install a mdf in a phone room

Yes, I have informed my boss I don't know anything about installing phone systems.

Yes, I understand companies have to make money by marking up the equipment. I also understand they buy wholesale; my example was retail, and I included the labor costs. I was at a car dealership where the stickers were MSRP + $2000. The car dealer has to make a living too, right? Would you buy from him?

When offering advice, it pays to be a little more diplomatic. I've put connectors on coax, RJ11 and RJ45 cables with no problems (in spite of having some red-green color blindness). I've built computers from parts. The phone equipment we're discussing is basically a computer, controlled by software. I have an understanding of what phone systems are supposed to do and how they do; what I do not have is knowledge of all the acronyms in use, and some of the features.

Customers deserve to understand what they're buying -- what are those labor costs for? What does the equipment do?

All we're talking about doing is replacing the cabinet and the phones. What does that realistically entail? Replacing the mdf? Repulling the cables? Installing new 120vac outlets? Getting new phone lines from tpc?

Btw, County wide, thanks for the tip on Newton's book -- I've got it on order at Amazon.

And Rich30529, no they don't have fast pcs, only some of them are on the latest Windows version, I just recently replaced their 10mbs hub with a 1gbs switch, but so far the fastest nic in a pc is 100mbs. In the interests of being more environmentally friendly we're in the process of replacing half a dozen printers (ink & laser) with a central multi-function copier/printer (parents keep donating cheap ink printers that cost a fortune in cartridges to keep running).

not replaceing mdf but cutting down a new frame
for the pbx .blocks do fade and corrode with
time thats why bix, krone, and 110/210 are so much better no exposed contacts much cleaner
install and if you have the room on the new
pbx frame and the old cables reach why not cut them down on new rails??

Well this post goes on and on so to answer the question at hand.

You have a Panasonic system so changing it out for another Panasonic kit would not take all that long any good Panasonic installer will have a new MDF in place in 2-3 hours there would not be any changes to the cable or floor sockets these would remain as is on any system as most systems now only require a single pair of wires to run a phone if you already have a DBS phone in place no extra cable is required to change the handset
If all rooms are already cabled allow same amount of time to unpack and install new handsets.
To train the users 2 hours
So in effect it should take no more than 1 days labour to complete the job
As for you doing it yourself!!! Your dreaming... anyway all installers are Panasonic approved, tested, and has a cert for each type of system they work on. During training the student must know all the terminology used by the instructors as they won’t stop to explain... your Comment (in spite of having some red-green colour blindness) making up an MDF would certainly cause you problems don’t you think as you would not only be dealing with red and black cables.
To end
In order to fit a phone system properly you must know what you’re doing if a problem arises you have to know where to look for the remedy this doesn’t come from books it comes from years of fault finding experience. Starting small while in training, eventually working up to answering questions online for the people who don’t know how.


Peter (www.novacomms.net)

Peter Doyle,
Your wiring information is not entirely correct. True most of today's phone systems work off of a single pair and consequently, a lot of installers are wiring just a single pair to the jack. The Panasonic TDA digital phones work off a single pair, but a different pair than the DBS phones. Many times I find myself having to rewire every single jack simply because a previous installer was too lazy to connect at least two pairs.

if you are going to do a new system you may want to repin all the jacks if they look crusty.

Kevhawk13
your Comment:Peter Doyle,
Your wiring information is not entirely correct. True most of today's phone systems work off of a single pair and consequently, a lot of installers are wiring just a single pair to the jack. The Panasonic TDA digital phones work off a single pair, but a different pair than the DBS

maby this is a country issue But here goes:

in ireland all DBS systems require 2 pairs to run. Annalogue and Digital. if the handset is curently working the digi pair is intact.so its just a case to locate that digi pair at the system side. i have installed and replaced many a DBS system with kxtd and TDA and never had to rewire the wall side (unless asked too) now as i said earlier it may be a country issue and maby your DBS system doesnt use a digital pair to run or maby your TDA doesnt cable out on the same pair as ours and if so i appoligse for the mis info.

peter

no you are right riv the dbs installers always
cut down both pairs that way if you needed to swap
an analog ext to a dig there was not a big woop
at the wall plate

If I go in on a new job the first jack in a quad
plate is a rj 14 then I do 2 singles on the gr
and br pair the bottom right is a 568b
that is providing of course there is only 2 drops

Sorry, but I stay far away from Churches and Non Profits. They have been wired and rewired by Bozo's doing "volunteer work". Just forced to do a church, they were running Nortel and had remote buildings.
They were given a TD1232 and TVS200 voice mail, but only 7000 series phones.
Only 1st pair was wired on 60% of jacks, almost all jacks were behind huge book cases and piles of fire hazards. About a million unmarked and unknown to anyone IDF's. No on knew where anything was. Underground PIC cable run between buildings punched directly to 66 blocks with NO protection. Some of the IDF's were multiple 3 pair cables with no spare pairs. Now we gave them a good price to tone cables and install sets and train them, any additional work to be hourly.
There were lots of hours repairing jacks with 1 pair, others miss wired 2nd pair, running cables to IDF. This lunacy was hatched in the brain of their volunteer CG. Any for profit interconnect could have sold them a new DSX or similar system
for less than this miss mash of donated stuff cost. (which was offered) Not to mention the safety related items noted previously.

No disrespect to original poster or volunteers (most have good intentions), just venting.

Peter, All dbs systems use centre pair on modular socket if it is a digital or slt port
the dbs never supported analouge key sets and I have many times twisted the pairs on the phone cable to get the kxtd or kxtda systems to work. I would say you were lucky that the cabling was done on 2 pair config. I still to this day wire the systems with 2 pair to each outlet.

OBT,
Exactly.

maybe it ireland then
the only company allowed to fit DBS was cable and wireless these always done the job right you must have a load of plonkers over there.

peter

I love the term "A load of plonkers"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :db: :db: :db:

Wow, this thread started out bad and went downhill fast.

Peter, perhaps your approach should be to do research on what you have and what you want to do. Start with your budget. You don't get many bells and whistles with a DBS, but when you keep the phones, you're not tossing $200+ sets in the dumpster.

A new voice mail system could integrate into a DBS cabinet, probably not the tightest of integrations, and you could get unified messaging and web based programming.

If you decide to scrap what you have and buy new, keep in mind that as has been pointed out, the DBS uses the center pins on a 6 pin jack for voice. The Nortel does also. The KXT uses pins 2&5 for digital phones, so it's possible that you will have to rewire every jack. You don't touch the house cable, you don't put modular plugs on cables or any of that stuff. You build a distribution frame. That frame could be via patch panel, 110 block, 66 block, BIX block for our Northern neighbors, or probably some other scheme.

To use your car example, you might change the oil, but it's unlikely that you'd take delivery of the parts and build it yourself. I don't know that you can compare a phone system to a car, because the car needs consumables. Most phone system installations are pretty static and yours is probably no exception, unless you have a high turnover. We got a new priest in the Catholic church and they got a new Rabbi in the Temple, but that's one service call each in two years.

Carl

Peter Doyle, I am from Ireland!!!!

From my Ireland lookup geography lesson, it looks like about a 2 hour drive between you.
Is there a place in between?

Carl

People, I've sitting back whatching this thread drift off topic and hinging on what some may feel is boarder line flaming.
I think that Peter Dow's original question has been answered.
If you want to argue the finer points of how and why jacks are wired in the way that they are then take it to the cabling catagory.
I'm trusting I won't have to start PMing everyone and lock this thread down.
Thanks to all who have responded to Mr Dow's original question.
If you feel the need to discuss install or fitting procedures, jack pinouts, plonkers or the price of tea in china please do so via PM or email or start a thread in the "phone booth". :shrug:
let this post RIP, Thank you.
MrG