atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Other TDM Phone Systems 1A2 and Comkey Telephones & Systems My 1A2 project

Here is my current 1A2 project. So far, I have the KSU mounted onto a painted (Weco Grey, er, at least I hope it aproximates Weco Grey)plywood board. It contains two WE 400D KTU cards, a 28A1 power unit, and mechanical flasher.







I intend to use a WE 415A line tie card to tie this to a second as yet acquired system in this unit as well as a MOH card (eventually).

I have two CO line inputs at the very bottom that connect with two 42A blocks. As you can see, the covers are brown, though I would prefer grey.

To the side of the unit, I have a 60 block, properly mounted (I hope), but have not connected it to the KSU yet.

I also have the proper WE ring generator for this unit (I think I bought it from Sam), but not the proper mounting bracket. I might mount it with velcro until I can find the right metal bracket for this.

Now my questions. First of all, the cross connect wire that I have is basic blue/white. I intend to connect the KSU to the block that is now on the board, then connect that to type 60 blocks with the amphenol connectors on it to connect to my phones. Should I use different wire colors for connecting the KSU to the first block? Or would it be proper (Weco proper, that is) to use just blue and white wire?

Ulitmately, I will also have a Melkor unit on this as well for intercom use.



This is the 645HL phone that I cleaned up. It came from Kirtland AFB, and was oxidized to a nice shade of brown. I was able to bring the moss green back with very fine waterproof sandpaper and then the plastic polish kit. As you can see, the only thing that I could not properly clean is the dial face. I was afraid that I would destroy the numbers if I did the same thing to it. Any suggestions?

Well, that is if for now. I hope to have an update in a few days.

All the best

Joe

Joe -

Good luck with your project. It looks like you're well on your way to having a lot of fun.

You should use 3 pair cross connect for the output cross connects and use the single pair for the inputs, the intercom buzzers, ringers, etc.

Blue/white is good in my book. Though some purists may insist on blue/yellow. When I went to work for GTE they used Orange/white for single pair.

I do believe that Ed Vaughn once had a post where he listed every color cross connect with it's appropriate use; try searching for it.

Definitely do NOT use single pair for everything - it makes troubleshooting difficult.

You can test your 415 cards to make sure they work by putting them in positions 3&4 of the ksu and wiring them together. When you go off hook on one the other should ring, and vice versa. It would be a shame to buy a 2nd ksu only to find you've got a bad 415 card.

Good luck and come back anytime with questions.

Sam

Joe, somewhere on this site is a link to information about a mixture of oxi-clean and hydrogen peroxide used to remove color change oxidation from plastic parts. Apparently works pretty well, even some here have tried it. HOWEVER, quite likely, it will remove the numbers as well as the oxidation. You're on your own as to whether or not to try it. John C.

It looks like a good start. Like Sam said, 3 pair cross connect wire for the keysets. wh/bl, wh/or, wh/gn pairs.
I especially like the color of the phone. Fits my last name

Taking your points in no particular order:

Congratulations on your decision to play with REAL telephones. I have been working with these for over 45 years, so if you have any questions, feel free to ask.

The Blocks are called 66M-50. 66 style, M as in Mini, 50 as in the number of pairs provided. (25 each side)

The phone is a 564 or 565. The first 5 refers to the 500-family, the 6 refers to 6 keys, and the last number is a 4 if it has no speakerphone leads, and a 5 if it does.

The Bell System designed things to last forever. The numbers and letters on the 7, 8 and 9-type rotary dials (as well as the numbers and letters on 25 and 35 type TT dials) go all the way through, using an injection method. You can sand away and you will never wear them off. Look at the back of the dial plate and you will see confirmation of this.

You need 3-pair for interconnecting the KSU block (the one you have mounted) and the other 66 blocks that feed the phones. We also need to talk to you about bridging clips and the "home-run" concept.

Use 3-pair for all CO, ICM, and tie line appearances on key telephones. Any unused conductors are traditionally wrapped around the ends, like the whipping on a rope end, so that in the event that they are needed in the future, you won't need to re-run the cross-connection. Please call me and I will explain in detail. It's too much to type, and I occasionally get hate mail through this Forum when I get too wordy in my explanations.

Generally, the only thing we use the 1-pair for is CO feeds. There are some exceptions.

To interconnect the KSU to the first block, you need a short piece of 25-pair cable. It will essentially mimic the block connections inside the KSU. It comes out the bottom mouse hole of the KSU and runs horizontally over to the bottom of the 66 block, then it fans out along the left column of pins on the block, in the traditional color code. Inside the KSU it picks up the first 12 pairs for the 4 CO line appearances, and the yellows or violets are used to send power (A, B, Buzzer, Lamp, Ground) to the block for interconnection to the intercom unit.

A "Melco" or "Teltone" intercom unit gets its own 66M-50 block, and cross-connections are made from it to the appropriate pins on the station 66 blocks.

The metal bracket that holds the generator supply in the KSU is made of unobtainium. I use a long tie-wrap and fasten it around the interrupter. (That's the correct word for the mechanical motor-driven device that gives you the cadences for ringing and lamps.)

You can reach me anytime at 631- 749 - 0100 or toll-free 866 - 749 - 0100.

Rule #1 of 1A2...Talk to Arthur Bloom!
I found some 42A blocks with gray covers but they are marked up with sharpie/labels from over the years. If you want them, I will be happy to send them your way.

And I have some cleaner pads that work wonders on ink & labels. pm me or give me an address to send you some.

Jim...what are they called? sounds intriguing!

I just want to thank everybody for their kind help and suggestions. I have taken a lot of notes so that I will wire this correctly. I will be using this in the metal out building (heated, cooled, concrete floor, insulated) at our new residence. I collect old teletypes, and this will be my teletype/radio/phone/rtty shop. The better half will be pleased that there will not be a teletype hammering away next to the dryer at two in the morning. :-) Eventually, I would like to set up another small KSU in the house, and tie the two of them together with 415 cards.

I started this project late last year (2009), and had to stop as I spent a year serving on the advisement board for the department of elementary and secondary ESL instruction in my state, which along with teaching undergrads took up every waking moment of my life. Never again.

Now I am semi-retired (I can never really stop working, I would go bonkers) so now I can play with my toys, grow pecan trees and enjoy the wife and grandkids.

Thanks again!

Joe

Joe, if you happen to be a member of Green Keys, you will find a good friend of mine, Larry Tighe ("Larry Radio") who is also a 1A2 enthusiast.

Semi-retired means you really don't have enough hours in the day to do what you have to do.

@ Jim...

How true, how true. :-)

Sent the covers out today!

Thank you all for the great suggestions and information on this project of mine.

Here is my next question:

When I go to wire the KSU to the first block using 25 pair, should I remove enough jacket on the 25 pair cable so that the bundle of pairs (minus jacket) will come up from the bottom of the KSU box (on the inside) up over the hook in the upper left corner, then down to the punchdown block, or should I simply take the wire bundle from the bottom of the KSU box on up the right side of the block.

I hope that this question makes sense... :-)

My second question is, should the other end of that 25 pair go under the first punchdown with the individual pairs coming up the side through their appropriate slots or should the bundle come up along the side of the block?

Thank you again for all the help!

Joe

here you can sort of see how I routed the cable for my KSU...
[img]https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d151/jeffmoss26/1068.jpg?t=1294619229[/img]
This is an old picture and the cables now come in from the top as I have rewired.

Strip enough sheath off the KSU end so that the stripped part begins just inside the mousehole. Then take the entire bundle of wires and go up and over the brass-colored hook at the top, then down to the appropriate pins on the 66 block, leaving a small amount for mistakes, moves and changes. There won't be many, but it pays to look ahead, as if you were doing a real installation. Jeff's picture shows it perfectly.

At the other end, the cable enters the "tunnel" between the 89B bracket and the 66M50 block at the bottom, and the stripped pairs get pulled through the spaces on the bracket, and get fanned out along the first (left-most) column of pins on the block.

Some brackets are different from others. You need to either send all the pairs through the central space, or half the pairs (12) through the top space and the other half (13) through the bottom space.

Neatness counts.

Hi again!

Here is an update on my project...

So far, I have been given a short bit of 25 pair cable, and followed Arthur's guidlines and connected the KSU to the first block.

Photos below.










Please comment and critique. I take all suggestions seriously, and please do not worry about hurting my feelings. This is the first time that I have ever done this, so I am sure that there is much room for improvement. I will tell you that I would be fired from the old phone company, as this took me hours to do, as I kept checking my color code chart and block number. I tried to be as neat as possible, and to leave extra wire for future use or re-doing. I could not find any grey electrical tape anywhere, so I had no choice in using black. The big thick black ground wire will be removed and replaced with a green one, though I realize grey is the correct color. I again, cannot find any grey solid 10 ga wire anywhere.

Now, the next step is to install the station blocks, the Melkor unit and its' block, and connect everything together.

One thing so far that I have learned is this... always use a bigger back board than you think you need.

I attached the 25 pair cable to the back board with these fiddley Weco dumaflopies that a phone man at work gave me. He took them off of an old Bell System installation, and they are basically a little strap of mild steel with a hole in the middle of them to screw them onto the backboard with. The tabs are then bent around the cable. They are the proper Weco grey, but were not the most cooperative thing to work with.

I want to thank everyone who has helped me so far, and especially Arthur who has given me some excellent advice on wiring this thing.

Please feel free to comment and criticize, and I will attempt to correct anything that might be not up to snuff.

Joe

A +

I can send you gray tape and #10 ground wire, as soon as I can find my barn under the snow drifts.

asAs far as taking the time to do it right, remeber the old Union vs management adage:

"Never enough time to do it right, but plenty of time to fix it."

I enjoyed seeing your project. We used to call it a "Lunch Box". We used only yellow/blue for our co feeds (T/R) and buzzer/misc. wiring and 3 pair jumper wire for T1/R1, A/A1, LG/L leads.
We did not care for the White/Blue because, at least in our case, it was a larger diamater and not as flexable thus harder to work with.

From your pictures I see your making the wiring neat and orginized. Usually they looked like a rats nest when you opened the cover!

Good Luck.

Hi again,

Thank you Arthur for the A+. That is a real compliment coming from you! I will send a PM shortly.

I have thought of several new questions now.

First, I realize that the ring generator was supposed to be mounted inside, but that the bracket that was meant for that use is now non-existant. I was thinking that I might fabricate a bracket out of angle aluminum, and mount it outside of the KSU and bring a sheathed 2 wire cable into the lunchbox to hook it up. What are your thoughts?

Second, (this is a silly question) where do I hook up the ring generator to in the KSU?

Next, I have suddenly come to the realization that if I am going to take the hobby of Weco keysets seriously, that I ought to find an Amp "butterfly" tool to terminate the ends of the cable runs. I have looked for new ones and they run almost a thousand dollars. I have found others on E-bay for fifty or sixty, complete with plastic case and instructions. If I go this route as opposed to buying premade cables (which would pay for a tool in a few runs), what should I look for in a used one?

Again, thank you for entertaining the questions of someone who really has no idea what he is doing! :-)

Best to all,

Joe

I had a similar issue with mounting the ring generator. I used two small brackets meant for hanging pictures that have d-rings on them...2 screws in the back of the ring generator and 2 screws on the wall.
https://www.seattlefabrics.com/Mounted%20D-Ring.jpg
The single pair of wires connects to RG and RB on the block.
PS What exactly is a 'dumafloppie'...can you take a picture of what you used to mount the cable :p

Jeff,

This is a "dumafloppie", a made up word for something that I do not know what the correct term is. :-)



They are basically little metal clips that screw to the backboard, and the tabs on either side of the mounting screw folds over the cable.

They are hard to manipulate, so I used a small pair of ignition pliers and a light touch to bend the tabs over the cable.

They do seem to do the job nicely.

Best

Joe

I have never seen those...I normally use cable ties and a small plastic mount made by Panduit...
[img]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/p...ZBT9qaCHSEnLsFGSyTZt4G4sapnBoOPT03IW=s90[/img]
I also have loads of metal one hole straps in various sizes, courtesy of our good friend Ed Vaughn.

Hi Jeff,

Yeah, they are hard to attach and hard to put into place around the cable, but once they are in place, they do a good job of holding the cables.

Keep an eye on this thread, I will be regularly posting updates on this project.

Best,

Joe

When I was with PT&T we just bent them with our fingers and finished with butt end of a screwdriver.

Joe -

As I recall, they were called "cable clasps". We used them extensively in the '60s and early '70s. We pretty much stopped using them when tyrap buttons came out.

Like Jim, we bent them with our fingers and finished them off with the butt end of the screw driver or with the small end of that brilliant phone company hammer we used to call a "dum-dum".

I don't think I've used a cable clasp in almost 40 years or seen one in 35 years.

Sam

Sam, that is neat! My KSU was made in 1960 (at least that is the date stamp on the box) and I have the clasps from possibly the same era. I know, I know, (my wife tells me that I am a natural antiquarian)but I simply find the technology of that era quite fascinating and a heck of a lot more robust that todays. (Except medical technology...I will take today's medical tech over anything) I would be quite willing to place a small wager that my old tube amateur radios, teletypes and this old KSU would survive any EMP or class X solar flare, whild my computers, the internet and my modern Icom radios would be toast.

Any way, thanks for the info Sam. I will continue to post updates for this project.

Joe

I found a roll of gray tape still in the bag. You can have it if you want it. It is 3/8inch by 15 yards. The bag reads: C Vinyl L.O. Gray Spec AT 7610. It was manufactured in the USA so there is a very good chance it is the correct Bell System Gray.

I'm glad you found a roll, because I struck out in the barn and the truck.

The tape you found is probably color suffix -61, and the one I was looking for was -49 (light olive gray) to match the cable.

In the real world, we seldom used tape at the ends of cables. It was too time-consuming. The preferred method is to create a sort of bushing at the end of the sheath. You use the stripping cord and cut it off at the proper point. Then grasp the loose conductors in one hand, and with the other hand, pull the split sheath back away from the conductors, until it turns inside out, like rolling up a sleeve. Then trim the folded part to a length of about an inch.

Outside plant cables, with sharp metal ternplate sheaths, were a different matter, of course.

What Arthur said.

I remember folding a "collar" on 25 pair cables back in the early '70s. Then we stopped doing it. I can't remember why. Maybe because we started putting on our own amphenols? Maybe we felt it didn't do anything? Maybe we just got lazy?

The only cables where we consistently taped the ends were shielded cables. Then we either taped or heat-shrunk the ends.

Sam

Ahh yes, the collar fold-back. Me too. I always did that in exposed terminals where the end of the sheath was visible.

I also slid a piece of empty sheath over the unused pairs in a terminal or KSU rather than twisting them all up. That way, all of the pairs stayed straight and in order. You could fish out the pair you needed and still keep the place neat.

Good housekeeping was the order of those days.

I saw a new closet being cabled today at school...300 pair cable going in. 100 pairs were taped up going to 1 set of blocks and 200 were taped up going to another set. It looked terrible!

We installed equipment not with ourselves in mind but with regard to the next installer/repairman that had to come out to the customer. You didn't want him or her spending hours trying to figure out your wiring or have them have to spend time listening to an irrate customer complain about the sloppy work and mess you left behind.

I was cleaning out my stash and in addition to the roll of tape I found four medium clasps, clamps, or as we called them "butterflies", and a small assortment of small medium and large "Hook" type clamps you are welcome to. I got bridge clips if you need them.

Hi all,

I have one more question pertaining to my 1A2 project.

I am mounting the ring generator external to the lunch box KSU, as I do not have a clamp for mounting it inside. I will thus have to run a connection into the KSU to hook it up, and was wondering if it would have been acceptable in the days of the Bell System to run the connecting wire through the top mouse hole or would it have been proper to only run it through the bottom mouse hole? I know that this is a rather trivial point, but I am trying to keep this as close to WECO standards as possible as I wish to use this as a working display of what things used to be like.

Thank you much,

Joe

Joe, that KSU was never designed to have the ring generator mounted inside, unlike the 551C. The most professional way to run the ring generator input is to use a piece of quad wire and bring it into the bottom hole of the cabinet. Don't bring it through the hole with the power cord though. There is supposed to be a plastic grommet for the power cord to pass through that effectively prevents any other wiring through.

Those are as hard to find as the ring generator mounting bracket, also made from 'unobtainium'.

Ed, the 118A was available with a sheet metal bracket that allowed installation in the earlier shoeboxes.

See page 5 of THIS BSP.

Using the photo as a guide, it wouldn't be difficult to fabricate a home-brew bracket that could be pop-riveted to the door.

--------------------

PS: the nick-name for the 551 series KSU is "shoe box."

The nick-name "lunch box" refers to the 331A tel set. (local battery, magneto, portable telephone)

The nick-name "cigar box" refers to the 105-type apparatus mounting box.

Woah, that's right Arthur. I completely forgot about those brackets, mainly because I never saw them in these parts.

Thankyou for the info you two!

I will run the wire through the bottom mouse hole. I have a bit of quad coming my way, (and I also bought a T-18 staple gun as well to mount it), and will get it hooked up soon as it arrives.

Thank you again!

Joe

Joe,
The parts are bagged and tagged and I will take them to the post office tomorrow.

Jo

Bell System techs may recall that those cable clasps were manufactured by the M.M. Rhodes and Sons company of Taunton,Mass.for Western Electric.This company also made the inside wiring nails used with twisted pair,triple and quad gs station wire, B station wire nails used with jkt wire, and the small one hole cable clamps used with 6 and 25 pair inside wiring cables.Amazingly, this company is still in business [founded in 1870]. They manufacture bx and romex staples,and galvanized cable clamps.Their website has an interesting display of fastening devices they have manufactured over the years.

Thank you for the info! I find that to be quite interesting. I will go to their site and give it a look.

Now another question... what block position in the KSU would be 10 volts and ground? I want to hook an indicator lamp up to that to show that there is power to the unit.

Thanks again for the help!

Joe

In one of my recent posts, I included a link to a BSP for the 550 and 551 KSU.

The connection diagrams are in there.

Click and print, would be my suggestion.

click

Thank you Arthur! I have printed, and placed in my phone binder for reference.

This should help with wiring tomorrow!

Photos to follow.

Joe

For everyone who has been following this story, here is an update on my progress so far.

Tonight I installed the ring generator on the back board using a metal bracket. Who knew that Lowes sells a bracket for such a thing...I mean, a ready made bracket complete with pre-drilled holes for the ring generator! (not really, it is a bracket used in house framing to bring it up to "hurricane specifications", and it was by simple dumb luck that the holes matched up). I wired it with a bit of the quad that Ed sent me.



Next, I installed a "beehive lamp" on top of the back board to indicate power to the unit. I connected it to the KSU with another bit of quad, and hooked it to the 10 volt lamp B and lamp Ground (LB & LG). The BSP that Arthur pointed me to had all of the info that I needed.

I tried to take a photo of this with the unit plugged in and the beehive light on, but the flash all but made it impossible to see. I am really pumped as this is the first time that I have plugged this thing in, and there is no smoke or flames!



I am waiting for a T18 staple gun to arrive so that I can button up the quad properly onto the backboard. It is a bit sloppy now.

Tommorow (weather permitting) I will go to the communications supply dealer that I use and buy the first block for the telephones (with the amp connectors) and a straight punchdown block for the Melkor unit.

Feel free to comment or suggest!

Best to all,

Joe

P.S. I think that I read somewhere on this forum that the power wire to the unit is not to be attached to the backboard or ran parallel to any signal wires or cables. Is it acceptable for the wire to cross over the signal cable? Note that I did not attach the ring generator power cable to the backboard, and it is several inches from any cables, but it does for a few inches run somewhat parallel to the signal cables. Is that OK or should I try to change it somehow?

Thanks again!

Joe

I would hesitate to go out and buy a block with an Amp connector. That will only allow you to plug in one telephone, or plug in one cable that would need to be split further down stream. The accepted method is to use a 66M50 block for every two 25-pair cables going to phones. You cut down the stub ends of the cables on the blocks, and the amphenol connectors (female) go towards the phones, where they plug (male) in.

Hi Arthur,

I didn't see your post until after I got home today. I did get one punchdown block with dual AMP connectors, and two blocks without (one for the other two phones and one for the Melkor unit). I wanted one with the plugs so that I could immediately start using it before I move next month without having cables dangling from the punch blocks. Once I move, I will attach the backboard to the wall in the Utility room, and use the punchdown blocks for the phones.

On another note, my T18 staple gun arrived today, and works quite well with the quad cable.

Pictures to follow when I finish with the cross connects.

Joe

Hi all,

This evening, I wired the cross connects, double checked my work, plugged in my phone to the block, and plugged in the KSU. Power came on, no smoke.

Next, I unplugged the KSU from the power, attached the CO line to the KSU, plugged everything back in, again no smoke.

I was able to get a dial tone when the line button was pushed, the line button lights as it is supposed to, the hold works, the line button flashes when on hold.

I was able to dial out and talk on the phone as normal. I was able to use the hold as normal and then take the line off hold to resume speaking.

I can dial in, and receive a call.

The only problem is that the phone will not ring.

Did I "ding" the phone or the KSU? (Sorry for the really bad pun.) I am assuming that something is not connected correctly, most likely in the phone itself.

Any Ideas?

By the way, I am really pumped about getting this far, and have dislocated my shoulder patting myself on the back! I could not have done this without all of the help and parts, both freely offered to a complet neophyte.

Thanks again!

Best to all,

Joe

More than lkely it is the wiring in the phone on the kts the yl/sl is used for the common bell pair and depends on the wiring may be made to ring the cb or as a line bell. research your bsps

What Jim said.

Look in your KSU. On the left side of the block, on the left, in the middle are a bunch of terminals marked B1, R1. There should be six of them. These are the ringing terminals for each line. Strap together all the lines you want to ring (B to B and R to R) and then cross connect the Yellow/Slate pair of the phone to the (strapped) B1R1 group.

Dial one of the lines in the group, the phone should now ring.

Sam

Probably only need to strap the Ring side of each pair. I think the Tips are already commoned in the back-wiring.

You can't expect to know everything. Click this and print it.

After a few thousand telephones, you'll have it memorized.

1A2 was great. Hardly any trunkers.
No DIY.
Want to move you 10 btn BLF phone with Diode Matrix ringing? No, it's not 10 min job.

Want a voice announce ICM? Nice add on job.
Cable and install 4 phones, nice add on job. :toast: :toast:

Hi again,

Well, I connected the RIs to eachother and the BIs to eachother, then to the yellow/slate of the phone set.

Still no bell on incoming call.

I tested for bell voltage on CO line, and it was there (when called) and I tested the BI/RI and there was no voltage.

I am going back to study the BSP, and I do remember that there was a dashed line going from the ring generator (49 and 50) to the BI and RI, but I want to confirm that with those of you that know what is what with this system.

One other question... Isn't the line button supposed to flash or come on when there is an incoming call? Mine do not, yet they light when pushed and they wink when on hold. (And I hear the interupter as well.)

Thanks again for all of the help!
I will not give up until this thing is working...
Then I will have to study the mysteries of intercom and plumb the secrets of the 415 cards...

Joe

Th

Hi again,

Im burning the midnight lamp and have been looking at this and trying different things.

One thing that I did was to look inside the telephone, and make sure that the bell was connected. (It was.) Then I put the cover back on, and applied ring voltage to the yellow/slate pair, and it rang (whether or not the hook was up).

I double checked my wiring, and it was right... I took a crossconnect pair to the RI/BI to the telephone slate yellow pair (Pins 39 and 40).

I also strapped the RIs all together as suggested. The BIs according to the BSP are factory linked and I confirmed this.

I do think that there is something not right with my phone however, as only the first line button will bring up a 400 KTU or light up. The others do nothing. I checked my other KTU, and tried the telephone on the other station line. Same thing.

Right now, however, I am concentrating on getting the phone to ring when a call comes into the first TR pair.

Thank you again for all of the help.

Now off to bed...

Joe

Joe,

With the phone disconnected take a lamp out of button 5 or 6 hold it across the Lg & L punchings on the 66 block of line one and see if the interrupter flashes the light. We used to take the eraser out of a pencil and put the lamp end into it to the eraser hole so you could work with it. Shorting the A & A1 leads with a needle nose should activate the 400 unit.

PS: call line one while doing the lamp test

Well we know the ring generator works, because it can ring the phone directly. If the line lamp does not flash on incoming I'm suspecting the interruptor - which also might be the reason the line is not ringing through the card.

Troubleshoot this problem the normal way - check for ring generator at every point:
-Is it coming out of the sub cycle unit?
-Does it appear on the block at pins RG/RB?
-Is it coming out of the line card on the appropriate pins?
-Do you have it on the B1/R1 leads?

Etc.

Keep at, you'll get it.

Sam

What if he connected Tip & Ring to T1 & R1. As I recall, that will prevent tripping the ring detector, starting the interrupter, etc.

On my system I connected a piece of wire from T/R to the Y/SL terminals to make the phones ring...

Looking good Joe - You're further alone with the backboard etc. than I've gotten pth loose equipment, but I do have one question that I didn't see in a quick scan of this thread:

Are you using a "real" phone line, and is the KSU properly grounded? I've found problems trying to use simulators and or extension ports from phone systems to supply dial tone - partly due to the reason that some versions of the 400 KTU were looking for ring voltage between tip and ground (or was it ring and ground) instead of tip-to-ring as supplied by most current equipment.

You all missed a clue:

No flash on incoming.

He hasn't grounded the KSU.

jknichols has a valid thought! The first 1A2 system I ever put in, I assumed (there's that word again) the AC outlet ground would be adequate. WRONG! I had to run an EARTH ground! Wouldn't recognize incoming ring until I did, then everything worked.

If all the wiring checks out OK,there is the possibility that the line cards have been damaged. 1A2 equipment became available in the mid-sixties, but it took nearly a decade for Bell Labs to recognise what was causing a maddeningly intermittant line card failure. BSP 518-010-108 issue 4 states that when local frequency generators[110 volts,30hertz] are used for common audible signalling with ringers, large transients can be generated with high enough voltage to damage line cards and blow fuses. The fix they came up with was the 141a protector, which was just a 68k resistor in a small plastic case that plugged across the 66 clips for each pair of b1 and r1 terminals. The 141a protectors were required at all new installations and on existing installations when visited for a service call.{Only for 400d line cards-400g&h line cards have internal protection.]

Hey, Joe TTY:

Take a piece of cross-connection wire, and fasten one end to the ground block in the KSU and the other end to the screw in the outlet. Then try an incoming call. Tell us if the interrupter starts.

Hi all,

I am at work now, but I will try the ground tonight and report back. I will also try the 10V lamp thing between the LG and LB pins on the block.

Thanks again for the help!

Joe

One other thing... I do have 400D KTU cards. However, I do hear the relay 'clunk' when I depress the line button. I do not know if they are damaged or not. Also, once the line one button is depressed, I get a dial tone and am able to use the line (sans ringing). I am anxious to get home to try grounding the unit.


Best,

Joe

Western Electric 400D KTU's need a local ground for the ring-up circuit to operate properly.

It's not a protection ground wire, so don't go crazy with a large gauge wire. Just a piece of X-conn or quad wire with all four leads twisted together is sufficient. Quad makes a nicer-looking solution.

Other WE later issues, and San/Bar 4000F cards, for example, do not require the ground.

If your dial tone comes from a non-ILEC ATA,and you use 400D's, you'll be SOL. You'll need the SB 4000F's.

My phone service is a simple POTS line. There is no DSL or call waiting or even caller ID. (Right now, I get internet access through CATV. At the new diggs, we will have Hughes net until either CATV or DSL gets out that far.)

I have checked the polarity of the POTS line, and it is correct.

I will indeed try grounding the system tonight and seeing what happens!

Best,

Joe

Arthur...so should I replace my 12 gauge green wire with some quad? lol

Joe, I'm going to jump on the band wagon here. Using 400D cards requires a solid ground and proper line polarity, period. Series E,F,G and H cards by WE and other manufacturers overcame this by introducing bridged ringing (across tip/ring) vs: grounded ringing (across ring/ground).

While this sounds as if it was an upgrade, the grounded ringing ability gave us plenty of tricks up our sleeves, like ringing multiple lines to a single ringer without a ring generator.

That required a 'real' central office with a truly grounded tip side of the CO line, something that is apparently optional these days.

One last suggestion is that you should check for a fairly large-gauge (18AWG?) white wire connected to the ground bar at the top of the 66 block in your KSU. Make sure that it is present and connected. If all else fails, use a piece of cross-connect wire to provide a true ground to any of the "G" terminals on the power supply. They are all common, so any of them will suffice.

Hi Ed,

There is a heavy gauge white wire at the top of the 66 block. I will check to see that this is common to the G terminals (using an ohmmeter).

With the ground connection that I will make tonight, should that be to an electrical box ground or a water-pipe ground (or both)?

Thanks again for the help!

Joe

Ifpossible, check continuo between the cold water pipe and an electrical ground. It should be 0 ohms. If it isn't use the water pipe.

Sam

I HEAR BELLS! :banana: :db:

My 1A2 phone system works! It rings on incoming calls, the line one button flashes, I can answer, hang up, place on hold... everything that it is supposed to do.

THANK EVERYONE WHO HAS HELPED ME WITH THIS!

To think that it was a simple ground issue! I connected the ground bar at the top of the 66 block to a cold water pipe using a hose clamp (the perm. install will use a proper ground clamp and # 10 solid copper wire in proper WECO grey), and without getting my hopes too high, I dialed in. IT WORKED!

Now, I need to figure out line two, and how to get that to work, but at least I have a working phone system!

Can you tell I am happy???

Now I need to find some more phones...

I will be back with a few extra questions tomorrow!

Best to all,

Joe

One last report... I forgot to mention that the KSU grounds were all connected to the ground bar at the top of the block.

Also, in my present abode, the resistance between the water pipe ground and electrical ground was abysmal, so I wound up using the water pipe ground.

I have not done the test with the light between the L and L1 terminals yet, but will do so tomorrow or next week. (I have to go out of town tomorrow, but I will check in with this board regularly).

The new house that we are moving into has had a complete electrical go through, and the new breaker panel is fully grounded. I had a whole house filter installed at the panel, and will instal a line filter at the outlet where the KSU will go. Eventually, I will put a UPS there as well, so I can use all of the features of the KSU if the power goes out.

Now that I have this working, I need to start accesorizing it! :-)

Best to all,

Joe