We will begin cabling a new building for an existing customer next week; about 75 station locations. We've had this customer for over 25 years and have them under maintenance the whole time, so there isn't much likelihood that they have any plans to go anywhere. Their architect has specified CAT6 wiring for all voice and data (shocker).

The problem is that we will be installing a new 100 pair BET to feed the building and will be sending extensions (either digital or SLT) to these CAT6 cable runs. The ones that we use look like THIS.

I prefer to use the 189 type protected entrance terminals, especially on this site since we have them installed in almost all of the buildings on the campus. They have 66 block outputs.

Of course, we aren't going to terminate the CAT6 cabling on 66 blocks, as much as I'd like to in order to keep the wiring standards the same everywhere. This has me leaning toward terminating the cables on 110 blocks and using a BET with a 110 block output. There won't be any equipment located in this building, just cross connects from the BET to the station cable blocks. These terminals look like THIS.

I absolutely refuse to terminate the voice cables on patch panels. The customer hasn't even asked us to do anything like that. They just want that magic buzz word from the architect; "CAT6".

What would you do? Use the same BET with 66 outputs that exist in over a dozen other buildings on the property or make the change over to one with 110 outputs? Of course, the incoming PE-22 cable is CAT-Zero, and aside from the fact that the output of the BET would be 110 blocks, this would only be an effort to match the incoming and outgoing cross connect methods. There's certainly no reason why we can't have a mix of 66 and 110, but I'm just looking for input from everyone.

Does this make sense? What would you do in this instance?

Have you talked to the architect (why is he doing this and not the electrical engineer?) as to why he is using Cat6 for voice only cabling? It might open your eyes a little to find out what he is thinking.

Why do you refuse terminate in a patch panels? It's a normal practice in many locations now a days as it offers the ability to use the cable as voice or data by just moving a patch cable.

Probably the same reason as mine. Too easy for any jerk-off to screw with the patch cords and you end up with a heck of a mess...

I guess I'd choose 110 blocks on both sides.

I'm with Jeff, 110 blocks on both sides.

However, like you said, it really doesn't matter. So do whatever's easier and whatever will make the Architecht happier.

Sam

Since the only reason you can't use 66 blocks is they won't maintain the data integrity for CAT6 and you're only using them for voice, I'd use the 66 Blocks anyway. Find some place you can store some slack than if they ever want to change the use for data and actually need CAT6 you can re-terminate to a patch panel. (What are the odds of that?)

Talk to the end user and explain the folly of using Cat6 for anything unless he needs to send huge files in very short lengths of time. Explain how much more expensive it is in terms of parts and labor.

I would go with a cross-connection system that makes you happy. If you like all 110-type, then go with that.

I recently asked an architect, in a meeting with a builder and owner, how many courses he had taken in electrical engineering during his education in architectural studies. "Silence."

Why not BIX or better yet, GigaBIX

https://www.belden.com/products/enterprisecabling/GigaBIX-Cross-Connect-System.cfm

Offers a nice, neat solution that maintains the CAT 6 performance and provides options down the road if customer ever decides they want to move from TDM to IP.

What Roadie says....... even in our market it is pretty standard that everyone would have it terminated on a patch panel. Just seeing more and more of it.

I have ran into your scenario. I've used the 66 block type then tailed it out to a Patch Panel and terminated all Cat 6 in a panel. You can't argue with these architects! I understand why you don't want to put it in a panel but future proofing should be on the back of your mind for sure.

I used to have a real hard on about putting voice onto patch panels, but I've gotten over it. Being able to use any jack for voice or data certainly has its advantages. "Sorry, can't plug a plug a phone in there, that's a data jack" is a thing of the past.

Patch panels. It's 2014 my friend.

Patch panels are pretty much all we use now.

I agree...patch panels are becoming more common and useful if the drop needs to be eventually used for data/IP phones. However, if you ever need to split apart pairs in the drop for different lines or devices, patch panels become a nightmare.

a) That alone is why I don't use patch panels. Far too often I need to add a jack at an existing location for some other device.

b) Without a P/Panel, it looks a little more intimidating to the untrained to "play" with the wiring

c) P/Panel add to the cost of the job, limiting prospects on bids as clients are wanting "cheap", not "neat"

That being said, we're drifting off topic, so let's get back to Ed's post...

I think that some responders are forgetting that this is a situation where we will be placing cross connects from a 100 pair building entrance terminal to voice station cables for single-line sets. To those of you who suggest using patch panels, may I ask how you would propose to complete the cross connecting process? Putting plugs on the ends of single-pair cross connect wire? I'm curious since I just don't see a professional way to cross connect to a patch panel.

I'm leaning toward going the 110 way, despite the fact that 100% of the rest of the facility has identical 66 type BETs.

If you have the room for 66 blocks, that is what I would use. They have less parts to them and it's always a problem replacing a 110 wafer. If you do not have the room, then 110 blocks fit in tighter quarters. In your application patch panels are not an option unless they are thinking VoIP down the road. You should try to discuss their long term plans to make the proper decision.

If all you're worried about is cross connects from the feeder cable to patch panels that hold the station cabling, you just need another patch panel with 25 pair punched down 1 pair per port with a block matching your entrance cable at the other end (be it 66 or 110 or bix or krone). Then of course you cross connect between the blocks and patch between the panels.

What Tommy said.
A customer of mine did the very same thing when replacing a Definity with an IP Office and keeping their digital sets. 25 pair cables run from the existing 66 blocks to a new rack with patch panels and the IP Office chassis.

I must have missed something. We pick up extremely inexpensive 8-pin patch panels and cable 1 pair per port to a 110 block and cross connect them to our 66/110/BET pairs 1:1. Then pair 1 is PP1 or whatever we need. We then get to buy 1' 1.5' 2' or 3' patch cords to do the patching.

Cable management keeps it neat.

Carl

Exactly how its done, that way you get best of both the worlds. It will take longer, but that should be an easy price adjustment, and more money for you to make. One difference we do is to run 50 pair and terminate two pair per port that way if you need to break out a couple of analog jacks at the outlet you can.

It would really be a shame to run all that data and not have it available if they decide to swap out the technology. Plus it will be a hell of a lot quicker to terminate on panels than 66 blocks and possibly 110s.

I would terminate all the cat 6 house cables on patch panels. If you don't it is really a waste of money to install cat 6 cabling. Then I would patch all the voice cables to a secondary 8 position patch panel tailed out to pre-connectorized 66 blocks cat whatever. Take your pick of how many active pins you want. I use these telco panels quite a bit now when the site has all wiring terminated on cat5e or 6 patch panels. I just patch a tdm extension directly from one patch panel to another, but there is no reason you can't go from a panel to a block and cross connect to your BET termination.

ortronics patch panels with 25 pair connectors.

Now you can choose how many active pins work from the patch panel, you should use 8 pin position if you don't want to make a bunch of 4 or 6 pin position adapters. When I install a 24 port card using one of these patch panels, I use a 24 port 8 pin panel with only one active pair per port (pins 4&5). Then the question comes up...how do you use the inactive pairs? I use one of these. You can use one on the cat6 house cable patch panel side and split your pairs at the workstation end to multiple jacks or use a pair of these adapters and leave the jack wired with all 4 pairs. I suggest the second way. These babies cost 9 bucks each.

Seimon y adapter (various configurations)

Technically they only meet cat 3 standard but they will transmit gigaspeed. However in your case we are talking standard TDM are we not? They will work just fine.

I have also used the cheap Suttle splitters and picked up pins 3&6 out of a data patch panel as well. There are lots of things you can do without splitting the pairs on the back of the panel.

Now that I am installing SBXs and the station ports are modular, some creative ways of making connections depending on the site and wiring are needed...one has to learn to adapt.

Also, we old tip and ringers may not like it...but with the growth of voip, voice wiring and data wiring needs to be more universal or dynamic if you prefer.

I think some of us are forgetting this. Ed, am I correct in understanding that there will never be any data equipment at this location, just the BET and the ends of the voice cables?

Then it makes no sense to go the patch panel route or even a BET with a 110 output since you should have a cross connect field so that you can utilize the 4 pairs of the CAT6 cables as necessary. So 1 pair jumper wire from the BET 66 output block to either 110s or 66s for the premises wiring.

-Hal

OK, maybe I need to provide more clarification. We are providing separate voice and data wiring in this building. CAT6 for each with the data terminated on traditional patch panels.

After a lengthy conversation with the customer and the architect, they agree that CAT6 for 38 single line wall phones is gross overkill. We are still going to use CAT6 cable since we've already started the job, but the voice cables will be terminated on 110 blocks.

We are also going to use the identical 189B1-100 BET for the incoming cable with 66 block output to maintain consistency with the other buildings on the premises. Yes, it will mean changing blades or tools when placing a jumper, but I don't see that this will be an issue since this building isn't one where there will be a lot of change activity.

Sorry to start such a firestorm of controversy. It definitely drew a line between the IT types and the traditional telephone people! I guess I was seeking some ammunition to deal with an architect who seems to feast on buzz words and acronyms. Thanks to all for the feedback.

More like over 100 years of proven reliability vs maybe 20 of "this seems like a good idea". How many failure points does a patch panel system introduce vs a simple hard wired method like Ed and I recommend? What kind of wiring flexibility do patch panels offer in this application? What is the probability of a patch panel system inviting "the brain dead" to play with it? Adding extra expense and extra labor to doing something just because it's done that way today is BS. If it's not needed it's not needed- same as always.

-Hal

Hal, remember that this conversation was based on the use of CAT 6. If you're going to make that investment (although clearly not needed here), you need to consider the long-term possibilities.

If the customer were looking long term, the architect would be looking at fiber to desktop as opposed to CAT 6.

Agreed. Besides, CAT6 is a misapplication in this case the same as sparkies using it for door bell and thermostat wiring. You gonna provide a patch panel on the furnace or electrical backboard for the connection of the wiring with patch cords to the transformer or furnace controls? Common sense goes a long way but unfortunately IT types only know their way.

-Hal

it would make more sense to provide pipe to each location for ease of upgrading when and if needed

Before you start making derogatory remarks about IT people you should look in the mirror as what you said can also be said about telco people who haven't learned anything new in the last 20 years and think 100 year old technology is still the only way to go.

Just so you know BAC systems are starting to use data cabling as they are starting to be controlled over the networks. So terminating them to a patch panel is the correct thing to do.

Ummmm, no I don't think so. Maybe a line between those who know VoIP is here to stay, and those who hope it will go away?

OK, here we go again. I wasn't looking to start a fight. This is hinging upon ridiculous.

The decision has been made between my company, the architect and the customer. We will finish running the CAT6 cable, terminate it on 630B4 wall phone jacks at the station ends and on 110 blocks at the head end. For the dozen outdoor phones, we'll do the same, with the exception of weatherproof enclosures for the single line telephone sets.

Placing a patch panel, a patch cord, another patch panel, various transitions over to the BET just makes no sense whatsoever. Who in their right mind would intentionally add five more potential points for failure in a new installation? I'm almost ashamed at some of the replies that I've seen here. I think that I've learned a lesson.

There is just a HUGE technological generation gap!

Opinions are like bung-holes!

No, we have the ability and experience to provide the right technology for the application, not make the customer pay for something they will never need and actually will cost them in the future to maintain.



I think you are a bit confused. Copper today is being abandoned all over for fiber so why would a TELCO install new copper?


Really, and from guys who should know better too. If some of you worked for me and came up with a solution that cost twice as much as necessary for no justifiable reason you would be looking for another job. We design for the application at hand, not for some eventuality that may never come to light.

-Hal

Technology evolves. I also install everything to patch panel/panels. I have been installing since 1976 so yes I am well aware of the 66 and 110 block terminations. Also remember the legacy installers complaining when station cabling went from 25 pair to 3 or 4 pair.

Adapt and move on or be run over.

I never said I'd recommend using patch panels, but I'm not adverse to doing so if the customer is paying the bill. You just adopt the "yes boss" attitude and do what you're told, smiling as you collect the extra cash. Also, if you're handed the job with structured cabling, you don't get a choice.

I think I've been ordered to do so in about 4 instances. The customers want that flexibility to do something down the road. In one case, it was because in the future they did go VoIP with 4 sites, the VoIP being used for transport of tie lines. I've also done Partner installs on patch panels, just because. When they move personnel, they don't have to have the "phone guy" do the moves.

Carl

Well, just as a note these are available:

Cat 6 110 blocks.

Interesting study in cross-generational prejudices.

This, to me, is a no brainer. The initial question stated the obvious: Cat 0 (more likely Cat 3) feeder cable into a BET. Cat 6 cables from station locations to be cross-connected to BET. What to use to cross-connect?

This has nothing to do with VoIP now or in the future. It is all about keeping some form of standard among all the campus BETs. Since your standard for all the other BETs is 66 blocks, then why complicate this new location with 110? If you think the 110 solution would provide for a neater, less trouble prone installation, then, by all means, use 110.

Back in prehistoric times, Bell Telephone had a simple, unwritten rule, Keep it as simple as possible, but make it as reliable as needed.

Rcaman

Well, here is the solution we ended up coming up with. Keep in mind that almost all of the station sets are standard 2554's, with many in outdoor enclosures, so I'm still not in agreement with their architect regarding the requirement for CAT6 plenum cable in a non-plenum environment, but that's another subject.

We ended up putting a 100 pair BET with a stubbed input and 110 output and terminated all of the CAT6 cables (and CAT3 tie cables) on 110 blocks as well. I think that this was the best way to address the impasse, especially when dealing with the limited amount of space we had to work with. Thank goodness for the 25 foot stub on the BET because there was surely no room for a splice closure in this "tel/data" closet that we were given. That splice will occur on the other side of the wall in a utility room.

The rogue IW coming in from the right is just a temporary feed for the elevator phone so that they could pass inspection. We have not been able to do the splice in the pedestal outside to get this terminal placed into service yet.

Comcast came in and wrecked the CATV part of the installation, but I'm not surprised. At least they left our cable bundles somewhat intact.

Looks great, Ed!