That about covers it. Cabling is not my primary task. I do pickup occasional simple single run pulls, the very occasional residential data install.

I've been asked to do an install in recently rebuilt commercial space before the tenant who I do other work for enters it. I like the tenant, and would like to keep working for them. I have looked at the space, the GC hung boxes and conduit on the opposite sides of the metal studs from the electrical. They are both in metal boxes though, and nothing back to back. About 70% of the rock is on and it is all insulated.

Issue 1) grid is installed at 9', and the bottom of the girders are at about 20'. I can't figure a way to reach the girders to hang anything. I know the cable cannot be on the tiles, but would there be any problem\code for hanging it from the grid stringers supporting the grid?

If I remember right the stringers are 16-18 gauge steel but this much copper would still weigh a lot.

The server room is centrally located. I've figured run lengths for the drops which work out to 115' with planned service loops. Each drop is getting 3 cat6 cables. I feel this is overkill but will do it. An important person wants 6 so they get 6 or maybe 6a. Personal opinion, desktop PCs don't need 1G even if Dell ships them that way now. The company always need more ports in the current space, and this overkill is the cause of that.

It is all being done as data, there are no analog lines except one for one fax and I don't even know where that goes yet. There is no DEMARC anywhere in the space that I can find. There is a phone closet on the other leg of the L shaped building. I should post a picture of that, but I got out too quick (alive).

My thought on process is the following...

Initially string all the cable on the tiles but over any insulated heating or electrical which has its own hangers since it was sensibly done before the grid was in.

Once everything is run, go back though and hang it. It will take longer this way, but then I'll know where hangers are needed. My thought on hanging is to ziptie a long ziptie loop to the stringer. This loop wouldn't be to bundle it, but would be more like a stirrup for the cable. I hope the offset weight will cause enough angled friction to keep the first tie from sliding down the stringer. If I have to I can always add a screw on clamp, I guess.

I plan on specifying Velcro to bundle this.

In the server room, I plan on patch panels on a 2 post rack. cable in though the cener of the ceiling. No one planned for trays, the reason I was told is that they were not needed. :bang:

I think it would make the most sense order wise to punch each cable from a box to a different patch panel on the same port #. That way all of box-1 will be on port-1. To make telling the cables apart easier(support) I was to use 3 colors (blue white and gray), and then wiring the 3-fer at each station the same way. Once again to make supporting it later easier. I will be pin checking all pairs on the install, and maybe renting a real certifying cable tester if I can get them to go for it.

All totaled for all of the cables and drops it looks like about 15,600 feet of cable, or 5,170 for each color.

Besides being crazy to even think about doing it, is the logic sound? The biggest thing I worry about besides the short time I have to locate gear is the hanging issue. I'm about 30% run away, and 70% don't want to loose this customer because they have been a regular source of income for the last 6 months because their last IT guy didn't document any thing.

ALL recommendations would be appreciated and are pre-thanked profusely.

I forgot to add this bit, there are 63 planned drops. for the patch panels I planned on (3) 48 port + (3) 24 port. It was suggested to me that the patches be hung on the wall while everything else would be on racks in the center of the room, and I told them they were nuts, and that I didn't want to have to run patches across to the routers and switches 6 horizontal feet away.

A few things to think about. Do you have enough man power to do this job? You may want to outsource the cable pulling to a company that does this. After all you have to think about moving and setting up the network. You will have to have some kind of extension for the d-marc. IF the ceiling tile guys are still on site they might be willing to add you some grid wires for you to use. YOu don't want to use theres. After time the weight will bend the grid wire causing the ceiling grid to shift. Can you run the drops against the walls? I know it will add some length but it might be a better choice. Are they requiring you to separate out the cables by color? Such as one color for data runs, one color for voice and the 3rd color for extra or printers? If not save the hassle and pull all one color and number your cables with a sharpie. Then it is just a matter punching down cables in order on the patch panels. With this many cables you really need some ladder tray and make sure they use wire management in the closet. Also don' forget about grounding your racks. Since you don't do cabling runs as a living I would think twice about doing it. It might be better to sub the work out and be in charge of it for the customer. That way your keeping your face in front of the customer. It also maybe a very good way to establish some relationships with a company that installs cables but does not do networking. Some other things to keep in the back of your mind are phone systems and alarm companys. You might have to provide dial tone for them.

Sounds like you have a nice project ahead of you.

Have you thought of following the wall structure above the ceiling? Then there are no support wire issues (a lot of jurisdictions will not allow ceiling wire to support anything but the ceiling).

Is the conduit furnished by the GC large enough for all that CAT 6? Are the boxes large enough to not over-bend the cable when it is terminated?

Good Luck.

Why in heck are you planning on so many patch panels for 63 drops?

I agree with sub contracting the work. If you haven't done this scope of work before, then you'll end up with bad results somewhere along the way... just digging your own grave. Think of it this way... if you install the cable incorrectly, do you want to have to go back and troubleshoot it and/or possibly have to pay someone else to troubleshoot it? You would really look bad in the customer's eyes at that point.

Do it once and do it right.

If you want to learn how to do this, the there is no better way than observation... ask the company that you sub it out to, if you can hang with their guys for a day of cable pulling, since you got them the work and want to learn a thing or two about the basics.

Also, with what Dave said... why are you using so many patch panels? Also, what are they using for phone... VoIP? There is no need at all for 3 CAT6 cables at each location... that is BIG overkill.

I think he plans on putting each color cable into its own "sets" of patch panels. As long as the customer is requesting it to be done this way. It would be cheaper and easier just to start numbering cables with a sharpie.

Even at that, I would say 3 patch panels at the most. Either 3 x 24 ports or 2 x 24 ports for voice & Other and 1 x 48 port for Data.

Personally, I wouldn't use a Patch Panel for voice anyway.

I truly believe the OP is over his head on this job and should sub it all out, watch & learn.

Question: Is the client asking for all cat6 or is there a CG somewhere showing his ignorance?

If the OP really wants to "Impress the client", explain the wasted cost of using cat 6 where it is unwarranted AND using fewer panels. Explain it in dollars & cents to the client. Money talks.

i think i read it is 63 locations with 3 cables at each location

You cannot hang you cable from the existing drop ceiling support. That is a violation of the NEC. The only exception would be to install your own support wires from the building steel, then they must be tied to the ceiling grid as well.

I would caution you not to run your cables over the grid and over the exsitng mechanicals. If there are no tiles installed, you risk the chance of knocking the whole grid dowm, depending on how well it is installed. If you run wires over the mechanicals, you'll make those tradesmen very unhappy.

Use the Lagmaster Plus to fasten your own support wire from the 20 foot ceiling.

The number if patch panels makes sense if you want each color seperated. It also makes sense to label as you pull so you have location numbers the same at each drop location (01A,01B,01C) for example. Like others have said maybe the walls extend above the drop ceiling you can screw j-hooks to. You may have to hang your own support for j-hooks if thats your only option. I have used small gauge chain with s-hooks to hang j-hooks before. Tie some pull string to a roll of tape, throw through the rafters then tie chain on and pull it through. I only have done this when there was no other option and never had an inspector shoot me down for it. It looks nice as long as you keep it level and within the correct distance from each j-hook. As far as the demarc extension goes, look for a conduit coming into the suite. Sometimes each suite will have it's own conduit leading to the building demarc. This type of install can be tough for a cabling newbie, so I hope you have some good help or you may want to consider having a cabling company do the rough pulling.

One question I had was how does anyone know that the drop ceiling support wire you have a J hook on is yours vs one that is holding up the ceiling if they all have to be attached to the grid at the bottom...

I wont't address any other part of this train wreck except this because I don't think anybody else did.

Issue 1) grid is installed at 9', and the bottom of the girders are at about 20'. I can't figure a way to reach the girders to hang anything. I know the cable cannot be on the tiles, but would there be any problem\code for hanging it from the grid stringers supporting the grid?

No, you cannot attach to the ceiling hangers. So, the grid is 9' and the roof above is 20'. Now the ceiling is installed, correct? How did the other trades like the electricians, HVAC, sprinkler and the ceiling guys get up there?

The answer is they were on the job before the ceiling was installed which was when you should have been there also with scaffolding or had it subbed out.

Obviously you are in over your head here (literally).

-Hal

You have been given some good advice and the best advice is to get a cable contractor to install the cable. You can still be a part of the project terminating both ends of the cables. 63x3x2= a ton of terminating. You'll get it done right, keep your customer and your integrity and the icing on the cake is you'll learn how this is done the best way-Hands ON!

That is the major problem. You're in too late. Without the ceiling in place, it would be alot easier. Looks like the tenant called you in too late, or you showed up too late. Either way the problem is still there. Now you're probably limited to chain or shooting some stringers into the ceiling with a ramset on an extension pole. It can be done with the right tools and know how.

Now you're probably limited to chain or shooting some stringers into the ceiling with a ramset on an extension pole.

I have seen chain to support fixtures IF there is something in the right place and you can get it over it. As for shooting pins, that depends on what is there. Mineral or other insulating board under a built-up roof isn't going to work. Don't think I have ever seen a 15' extension anyway.

Unfortunately this is what you are going to need and parts of the ceiling will have to be disassembled and re-installed wherever you need to get up through. Somebodies got to pay for that.

I hope it wasn't you who was dragging their feet on this. If you knew about this before the ceiling went in the problem and $$$$ sits squarely on your shoulders. You snooze you lose.

-Hal

WARNING, HERE BE ESSAY:

I appreciate your comments completely. and I will attempt to answer the questions you have all posed. I agree 1000% with Hal and Kevin that I was brought in much too late.

I may have dropped the ball some too in this process. I have known that we would be moving into the new space. I had asked, but not very forcibly about some of these questions and been told that everything was all set and took that to be an educated response(my big mistake). Then I found out they wanted me to cable it. That was late last Friday. I didn't get into see the space until Tuesday afternoon. I remembered I had this board bookmarked part way though Wednesday, and started reading to see if I missed anything that covered even part of what was going to be needed before posting.

With he flags I raised prior to and with the posts above I managed to convince the person who found me this opportunity to at least try and sub out the cable pull. It was probably when I started talking to him about grounding the racks in the server room. Which I had remembered on my own. It is partly a relief to me anyway. Now I just have to make sure some other does it right, and I will watch them to pick up some pointers.

Even though there is a good chance I wont be stringing this, I want to treat it like I will be, until it is done by someone else and I believe it.

For some reason it was thought I could spec out a full install in 24 hours for parts I may use once every couple of years if I was looking at 5E gear and not 6.

I also mis-used a term above. The number of patch panels, is for 3 drops in a box with 63 boxes or 189 total planned drops. The color was my idea only because I didn't want to number each cable in a box at the server room, but instead number boxes only. Each labeled 3 cable bundle would be self numbering by color, nothing to rub off. Call me vain, but it would look nice cabled correctly later.

The client wants the end users to be able to plug any device into any port, I think this is silly myself, said so and was shot down. The Cat-6 cabling requirement was by someone, call him a VP who reads magazines, likes buzz words (you know the type) once again, I was told to go with it. I cannot help them if they don't want to listen. I offer, and try to save my breath for arguing where the POWERS THAT BE have not DECIDED. I mean don't you hire someone to tell them how to do their job?

Three of the 21 rooms are testing labs, my personal thought was to use the third port to link users who needed access to a segregated network segment through that method. Then being able to easily find that third port in a mass, would be handy. I'd guess 80% of the boxes will never use that third port.

I totally agree that the place is way over cabled, over powered too. Every office (under 130sqft) has at least 2 data and electrical boxes in opposite walls some rooms have three and all data boxes are 3 fers. I'd guess there is at least 5000 extra feet of cable than needs to be there.

The real kicker is 189 ports is more switching capacity than we currently have so even running them all, there is no way to make more than 2/3 live on opening day.

I wish I had been in on planning the drops. The layout now that I'm looking at it was done by someone to whom the cable ends are magically attached to the server room. No three of them are on the same line, even diagonal that I am able to draw except the four outside walls of the space, two of which don't have planned drop location since they are for cube space another dumb idea not planning those drops because now that meas surface conduit of some kind, if the outside wall sheet rock is attached to foam board. I wont know until I drill in.

I am technically the CG for this place, the person who is my supervisor thinks that VoIP traffic should run inline with regular traffic and be sorted out by VLAN is missing the point that recommending a dedicated port for those things saves on the network bandwidth side as well as making routing less complicated, even with QOS capable switches. So all the phones are IP, thus patch panels for everything, no analog. Our pots lines terminate in a switch at a company in the DC area -- with locally assigned numbers. Everything from here to there is VoIP.

crisco3 & Ken: the boxes are duplex with a centered single gang opening. Conduit comes in on a back corner of the box. the conduit is plenty for 3 cables, If I had no other way I could probably get 5 drops down it. I didnt measure it but It looked like 1-1/4"OD. I was planning on using lube but didn't specify it. In typing this I just realized I can leave a smaller service loop on these because short of tearing out the wall, there is no way to latterly move the box - fixed to the stud. Easier to just run a new drop. Since everything is steel stud, that means a sawzall or a cutting disc to get through the top cap. Setting up the wireless is going to be 'fun'.

I've been told again that the grid was always in and not removed to install our new walls. A lot of the electrical is run along the wall tops. Some electrical fixtures are hung from the roof truss. It certainly explains some interesting sprinkler placements and ducting.

The ducting is about a foot above the grid and just clears most of the wall tops. I don't think I would be able to keep a constant level wire path and stay below the ducting while remaining the recommended distance away from the electrical mess. I wanted to go above most of the HVAC ducting to get away from the the electrical and into an area more open to stringing straight runs of cable.

For hanging from the roof truss some have suggested j hooks on chain. Would using a long threaded rod with an S or J hook on it hung from the truss and another S or J hook on the lower end for cable meet code? Once it was installed the weight of the cable would keep it from moving, and I don't think that would need to be attached to the grid since like the chain it isn't wire correct? How do you handle a spot where truss isnt overhead other than avoid it when possible?

It would be a royal PITA but you could stand a 10-12' step ladder up though the grid and open it to reach higher towards the truss. The other way would be to use an extension ladder. Maybe that was how some of the electrical was hung. Either way, its a lot of labor.

Supposedly the ceiling space is not used for air return, so plenum was not needed. I'm beginning to distrust the word of this particular person on wiring related issues though.

Kevin: I'll go look for that conduit from the building Demarc I have a guess where it might come up/in. Also it will let me take a look at and maybe some pictures in the building Demarc for the "When good installs go bad." Which I see is a second post now.

Lastly once again :bow: :bow: Thank You Everyone :bow: :bow: for your comments and suggestions. We are currently trying to run down a company to pull the cable, if you know of anyone in my area though contacts send me an email through the board.

Rowan

Been there a couple of times before.

Any chance of some pics regarding what you are up against ?
Here is a pneumatic Ceiling Clip https://www.powers.com/powder_actuated.html that I used to use with a Hilti gun that will allow you to stand on the floor and with the right length pole https://www.ramset.com/ext_poles.asp nail your clips into the beam or the deck with your needed tie wire attached.
If using a powder actuated gun is a problem on this site you could try this setup, with a couple of lengths of 1" PVC pipe and a can wrench glued in a bell end "I also add a couple adhesive backed sanding disks for a better grip" you would be able to get a Beam Clamp along with a Caddy J hook up on the beams edge if that is where you want it to run, kinda of a pain pulling the cables done this way do to the height I know however you could drop a piece of wire off the beams edge just as easy.

"Alot of labor"

Spoken like a true CG.

Hey I resemble that remark! :rofl: He hadn't even spec the rack that he was going to hang the fancy patch panels off of in the server room or plan for its proper grounding or wire management! I'm really glad I don't have that headache this time.

This is why I only resemble Bill's comment and am transitioning towards installer-hood -- where hopefully feckless job results will be nil.

I'll post again on this in a few weeks after the cable is in and I'll try to get before and after pictures.

Rowan

Rowan:

No offense, but your use of "Alot" may be the reason for BillFlippen's comment. I'm guessing that if that was the case, it was all in fun. There is no such word, yet it is very popular in the IT world.

Pictures are always great and appreciated as well. It would be great if you would share them with us.

Ed, don't forget the CG Speak term "Voyep" instead of "V-O-I-P" and bandwidth becomes "big honkin' pipe" as well as "the cloud" .....but I digress.....

You did right, Rowan.....don't get burned but yet you will learn as you go. :thumb:

Rowan:

You are welcome here even if at times you might get leaned on a little bit. It happens to us all, trust me. Most members here have a sense of humor, well some of them anyway.

Thanks for the offer of the pics. They will be a welcomed contribution.

Ok an overdue update.

No pictures yet, every time I've been down recently the camera wasn't in the car.

The cable was installed with something I've learned are called stirrups [for good reason] hung from threaded rod and clipped on the roof with some kind of friction clip that needed to be tugged on to set it.

The cable is in, it passed Certification, though looking at the result sheets, it was a close thing for some of the runs. The installer installed the 2post in the wrong place and didn't ground anything. Part of that was because a statement of work wasn't done, and the RFP was very light on details and not in my hands. I was out with a flu bug at when the rack was installed (no I wasn't oink'ing).

The rack should be moved next week, I will say I wasn't particularly happy with their tie down on the rack footer. They used philips concrete screws threaded through washers into the larger holes in the 2post foot. Even with a ladder all other installs I've seen had at least 3/8" threaded rod in the floor. Maybe every other system i've seen was over engineered. Because this wasn't specified, of course I get to live with it unless it fails.

It wont be done more because move in is in a week.

I had to do one CG'esq install that I wasn't particularly happy with. At one point the Demarc board wasn't in yet. Don't ask. anyway the phone company chose that time to bring the line we had to fight them to install from the other wiring closet. They left the end of a 12pair cable hanging down through a tile. the cable was strapped to grid wire, electrical hanging wire. and in one place the cooling system support. I pulled it back to where it entered the space. and ran it in the stirrups. Then because I couldn't find anyone local that would sell me 100' of 12 pair, but was able to find 25 pair. :shrug: I ended up needing 64' of that length. There is a careful splice using OEM scotch locks[correct pliers & matched colors] and then tied the ends together with ties so there was no stress on the splice. At the board I left 2' of slack in the ceiling, punched down the first 12 pairs, didn't shank the remainder and put a note of where the splice is. The only thing I'm not sure of is the 12pair was plenum, but the space isn't plenum required, so the 25pair is riser.

I think KLD asked at one point why not use wall mounted support. I'm not sure if I answered that before, but except the three labs, most of the walls end at the ceiling.

Grider, getting leaned on means that someone cares enough to be a wise @$$, If that is the cost of great help for free I can live with that. No one here is asking for a bucket of steam, 100' of water line, or any of the myriad mythical tools that the clueless are sent to find. I hope that wont change, though I'm not exactly gullible any more either.