https://www.bicsi.org/skillschallenge/ :toast:

That's gotta rank up there with a Star Trek convention...

So, are you saying that you won the grand trophy before?

-Hal

"That's gotta rank up there with a Star Trek convention..."

LOL..

Hal -

I was being a smart ass, no I've never been there. If I did go I would wear a Gorn costume though.

Nothing against BICSI, their installation standards books have been very helpful in some cases.

We hired a tech that went through all the BICSI courses and had all kinds of certifications. Level 1 thorough ... the moon. He was a real idiot out in the field though. That is usually the way it works.

........and did you notice that all the RCDDs are salesmen???

Real Cool Data Dudes????

Not all of them! :thumb:

We hired a tech that went through all the BICSI courses and had all kinds of certifications. Level 1 thorough ... the moon. He was a real idiot out in the field though. That is usually the way it works.

It normally works out that way, why oh why do American's value qualifications over real world experience???????

Is anyone here going to say anything positive about BICSI? I am surprised. It is a mistake to generalize that all BICSI certifications are worthless in the field. I would think that everyone (especially on this board) would value an organization that tries to set standards and guidelines to avoid all of the "ugly installations" that we see everyday. Personally, I have been in this business for 27 years, and if it's one thing I do know - it's that no one knows EVERYTHING. I actually enjoy taking the continuing education courses when I have the time to do it. I am RCDD since 1999, RCDD/NTS (Network Transport Systems) since 2002, and RCDD/NTS/OSP (Outside Plant) since 2004 and proud of it. I plan on getting the WD (wireless) certification when I have the time. I agree that certifications do not help in some real world situations, but overall I think BICSI is a positive force and anyone who has seen their manuals knows that the documentation is excellent. Let me just add that I have received a tremendous amount of learning here and value the input of the veterans who have forgotten more than I will ever know about this business. I refer people to this board and have a great deal of respect for all of it's members who have resolved issues for me and made great suggestions. It's like having a team of high-paid consultants for free!!!

I don't think it is a matter of people here being "anti" BICSI standards.

I think that part of the problem is that unless everyone is singing from the same hymnal, then BICSI standards are somewhat useless. If their standards were enforced, then we would see a completely different attitude. Just like with the NEC which is effectively enforced nationwide, BICSI could be a positive influence for our industry.

The bottom line is that they only time where BICSI standards are expected occur are at the customer's request. Since everyone is pinching pennies, that is the last place where people are going to spend money. While BICSI sets unified installation practices, they are still largely optional and rarely enforced.

The only other standards that have any "teeth" are those set forth by manufacturers in the installation of their products. Of course, the only thing that would be affected by failure to adhere would be their warranty obligations.

Essentially, the only standards that can truly be enforced are the NEC and local adaptations. As we all know, even those are not enforced in a uniform manner nationwide.

If their standards were enforced

Look at New Jersey, I have gone to 3 different township building departments for new construction cable jobs during Febuary.

Every one has a different set of ideas as to what needs to take place, one town says we need a copy of your low voltage licence another town says we don't

(the NJ low voltage certificate requires No test or display of competence, just a check, your local dunkin donuts could get one)

Then in my experience when the inspector comes out he is only interested in the electrical & could care less about Cat5 wiring......

Bicsi would be wonderful if it had some sway with these township building departments.........

at the end of the day these permits are just about revenue & keeping some local government idiots in a job............

when ever I walk in to the building department and say that I need a permit for voice & data wiring, it takes about 15 minutes for the penny to drop with the people who work there, it would be like going into McDonalds & asking for a Big Mac only for the person serving to say "whats a Big Mac"

What you really want is someone with real world experience AND the qualifications (certifications).

To see why BICSI can be a valuable resource just take a look through the cabling forum on this site. You'll see tons of questions asked by professionals whom either don't know the correct methods, or just aren't sure. Heck, most techs don't even have a clue about what the NEC says about communications wiring.

Other examples of why more people should look into BICSI can be found whenever you walk into a national chain store. Just look around at the way other "techs" do cabling.

BICSI is not perfect and I don't always agree with them. However, they will give you a good fundamental understanding of how things should be done. You'll have the reference materials and the knowledge too back up when you butt heads with a GC, architect or engineer. And, if you do it the BICSI way, you'll surely meet (or exceed) all NEC requirements!

Sorry, Larry.........you are the exception that proves the rules.

And, yes, to agree with the stupidity of some of the BICSI is outrageous...they have overseas influences...who needs a metric rack? Or 568A wiring? Only those manufacturers that make two pair required phone systems, CGs, and installers who are NOT located in the US. By their very name they claim to be international....and we have all seen pictures of even the PSTN from "over there".

IF (and that is a big IF) BISCI ever gets it's act together, the first thing it needs to do is abandon a lot of the old Bell System cabling requirements from back East. SWBT did things a lot better....of course, I was trained by SWBT. But this discussion could go on for ever.

And, yes, I have BICSI training, it is the base for IBEW LV training in most locals, and it is strictly a political football in most locations.

My $1-2.98.

Isn't 568A specified now for residential? Larry is right about the documentation. It's always there if you need it. Standards and criminal laws are similar - you don't need new laws if the old ones are not enforced.

I just have a problem with all of the Johnny-Come-Lately certification programs written mostly by Manufacturers that are becoming a large part of the industry.

In my opinion the programs are nothing more than the brain child of manufacturers that have devised a method of getting money by selling hyped up bs.

Don't read me wrong, I'm all for doing the job professionally and I have nothing against learning the proper way to install new technology as it evolves. But I just don't think that's what these programs are all about.

From what I've seen they are about selling a customer a 30 year warranty for a network cabling job knowing fully well the cables and equipment we install today will be outdated in a few years or less by industry standards. And they are the one's that set industry standards.

And these people are very good at writing job spec's (and out of the goodness of their hearts they will provide them to the customer free of charge) that eliminate anyone that refuses to succumb to what I feel is blackmail from being qualified to even bid a job.

That's my $5 bucks worth.

Bobby, as we are now required to be p.c....I'll say you meant to say in Texican....."El toro poo poo"....right? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Residential??? What is that?

Anyway, we have all turned this thread into a BICSI bash, so, back on topic......is 568A really required for resi? Why not just use CAT 3 and do it correctly?

:shrug:

Oh, no, the topic was really winning the trophy at the Star Trek convention? Oh, what the heck, go for it................

Ka Plah!

Hmmmm...Don't think you can blame that on BICSI.

My point is that techs need training. If you don't work for a telco, or have union support, BICSI is the way to go.

My only problem with BICSI is not the standard, heck they copied most of it from the ANSI standards we used for years. My problem is being a very small business I can't afford to go take their class. I can't go several hundred miles and pay the expenses it would take for something that means nothing to most my customers to begin with.

When I first started this busines I called to see if I could just take the test and not the course, the answer was no, I had to take their course to become certified. Guess over 30 years in telecommunications doesn't mean much. I never checked further, but it sure soured me on them.

Justbill - you are right about that - it is expensive! You could probably teach some of their courses after 30 years in the biz. The CECs are what kills you - the more certs you get, the more CECs you need to keep them.

That's the problem. I've only lost one job because I wasn't certified. That one job I got some work after the fact correcting the certified techs wiring errors, not many but a few. I'm sure they paid at least 3 times what I would have charged to bring in techs from a couple hundred miles away. The over all job they did was OK, but I would have done a few things different, like using colored backboards for the voice. The patch panels weren't terrible, but not as neat as I like to see them.

Likes been said throughout this topic, being certified doesn't make you a good tech. Just gives you the tools to become one.

I believe the BICSI installer challenger would determine who would be a better assembly line worker. Exact, repetitive detail. Sort of like Forrest Gump when he assembled his rifle.

The wonderful thing about standards is that there's so many of them.

Interesting points here. I would have thought that as much as some of the people here complain about lack of standards and unity that they would be embracing BICSI. They are at least trying to make communications cabling something that is considered up front and importaht instead of an afterthought. I have met several of the BICSI instructors and their all concerned with the same things we are. In my opinion BICSI has made lots of progress bringing our field to the front. Many organizations are moving towards requiring adherance to BICSI standards and best practices. We see bid requests all the time that require an RCDD involved in the design process. The companies who dont have an RCDD on staff are probably going to be complaining and trying to run down this requirement but its not going away. As time goes on your only going to see more and more of a BICSI presence in the construction process. Many large and powerful institutions like the US military are using BICSI as the standard for all of the communciations cabling. Collleges are another place where you see BICSI quite often along with major retailers, large corporations, etc., etc. Is the system perfect? of course not. I am an RCDD and am very proud of that title. I dont remember any salespeople at any of the training classes though. As far as the BICSI challenge goes, so what? big deal? its fun. You guys have never raced each other to see who can terminate a jack faster or can pull cable faster? Ive gotten many a free lunch this way. I think that instead of complaining about whats not right or perfect that all of us should own a TDMM and be using it daily instead of trying to buck the system. Nothing will ever be perfect in our world and thats just life but how about embracing an organization that is at least trying to help all of us and our industry. You dont have to go a BICSI course to take the RCDD exam. Just buy the TDMM, study your butt off, and try. On another note, 568A has always been the standard for commercial cabling and 568B has been optional. In residential it is required to be 568A. 568A was the standard and it was because of AT&T not wanting to play along that 568B came into play. Over the years because 568B was a newer standard it was assumed to be better and here we are. Anyways enough of that.