Hello,
I would appreciate any info, opinions, and advice; I have read a lot of the posts here and look forward to your insights. As the Systems Admin I have been tasked with the installation of a phone system at our new location.
We are moving 50 people into a brand new location that has all been cabled already. I work for a District Attorney's office and we are moving into the new courthouse. I have a closet for my space it is 8ft x 24ft There are racks on one side with the data cabling terminated in patch panels and black plywood on the other side with the station cables terminated to 110 blocks. I am going to use an IP phone system that will use 10/100 POE switches. These will be mounted in the racks on the data side of the room. I want to know what the best way of connecting between the 110 block and the switch.
My vendor is not addressing this in a manner that gives me a confident feeling.
I have thought of three solutions
1) Cable from the 110 blocks to a RJ45 patch panel and use patch cords.
2) Un do the 110 blocks and replace with RJ45 patch panels and use patch cords.
3) Punch the cable into the 110 and terminate the other end with an RJ45 plug. ( I have seen this done in my current building, but does not really seem to be the way to go, but I do not know)
What would you recommend?
Thank you in advance for taking the time to enlighten me and help me make an intelligent (I hope!) and informed decision!
Bill

Bill:

How about something like this? This particular manufacturer makes them in lengths up to ten feet, however there are plenty of other manufacturers who might make them longer if you need it:

https://www.icc.com/productsearchresults.aspx?searchterms=icpcsb10bl&limit=&sortBy=default

Probably in order, I like option 1 then 2 and never 3. The availability of Cat5e 25 pair cable would be the only issue for option 1.
It has the same effect as #2, but you don't have to undo the house cable and reterminate.

If you're really into punishment, you could try running the cable from the patch panel to another set of 110 blocks and use 4-pair Cat-6 cross connect wire.

BTW I've tried the Siemon 110 to RJ-45 patch cables. Besides being expensive, I've not had very good luck with them staying in place. However, the ICC brand is less than the cost of a patch panel and pretty competitive. They're only listed in 3/7/10' lengths.


Carl

Wow! That was quick!
Ed: Really neat widgets, if the switches were mounted next to the blocks I would probably use them. I need to go up over and down to get to the switches.
Carl: Thanks, I have mostly old Merlin type stuff in my building and it is all terminated as I described in option three, I just don't like it.
I did not think the station cabling would be terminated on 110, oh well you know what they say about assuming!
Thanks again.

Sounds like the cabling vendor wasn't sure that there was a Voice over IP switch going in, otherwise he would have (should have) punched the station cables to a patch panel and installed them on the same racks as your data cabling. The VOIP switch is probably rack-mounted also, isn't it? If you are not segregating the voice from the data (recommended), you could even use the same cable for the PC as the VOIP phone.

The cabling contractor did nothing wrong. It sounds to me like they were just following industry standards for voice cabling. Just because VOIP systems have a 4.1% share of the market doesn't necessarily justify completely re-vamping the entire industry. Voice cabling in the other 95.9% of the market terminates upon 110 or 66 type blocks in the United States.

It stinks that customers are having to add yet another expense in adapting to VOIP equipment. If this had been my installation, I would have done the same thing by using 110 blocks. Often, cabling contractors aren't even the parties who will be installing the phone system. It's not their responsibility to deviate from standard practices to wire for something different.

Perhaps the VOIP hardware providers might want to consider in their quest to take over the industry that they make their hardware interface directly with existing wiring infrastructures.

I agree with Ed completely. It was my assumption. The contractors did a beautiful job and if I had been thinking at all I would have realised that the telco would be terminatedas it has been.
Sooo... now I have to come up with a plan.
Thanks again.

Perhaps the VOIP hardware providers might want to consider in their quest to take over the industry that they make their hardware interface directly with existing wiring infrastructures.

That would be a good idea except they have no clue how anything is done except data.

I believe your solution #1 is the best. Never a good idea to disturb the existing wiring and terminations. That way you can rip everything out and go back to a TDM system without too much trouble when the you know what hits the fan. :thumb:

-Hal

Well, Bill... All that I can say is that you did the right thing by coming here to ask the question and we truly appreciate it.

So many people don't ask and end up being "bamboozled" with techno-jargon. As Hal mentioned, by leaving the wiring undisturbed and paying the extra for a transition hardware, you'll leave the next tenant with a wiring system that can be used.

Bill, please keep us posted as to how things go. By the way, welcome to our forum!

We have done it the way Ed says, with the 110/rj45 patch cables. We make our own cables. We purchase the 110 ends and terminate

How is this install any different from a traditional PBX? If the wiring is terminated on 110 blocks, you still would have the 110 bridge and terminate the cable to an RJ. The only difference I can see is if you wanted to use a Cat5 Patch Panel. How would a traditional PBX differ in installation other then where it would physically be located?

If the traditional PBX was still 20-feet away from the 110 block, wouldn't this same problem still exist?

I am just trying to understand why VoIP has an effect on this particular wiring install other then the fact that it now places everything at one end of the room.

Traditional TDM doesn't have the requirements of 4 pairs of Cat5e cross cuts. It's one or two pair and you can use Cat2 or Cat3. In my Panasonic installs, I terminate the amps on 66M1-50 blocks and use SBC-2 or MBC-4 bridge clips so that I can open up the station side to test. If I put a patch panel in, it's custom wired with 25 pair switchboard cable (again cat2 or 3) from a 110 block to a surplus RJ-45 (Cat 3, Cat 5, Cat whatever) patch panel and the appropriate pairs (1 pair or 2 pairs) make up the distribution. Then I can use inexpensive 3' Cat-5e patch cords to make the station connections.

Since VOIP requires Cat-5e connections, you have to maintain the twists from your 110 frame to the PoE switch. That connection becomes a bit more difficult and it's certainly more expensive that single pair CCW.

BTW my last 3 reels of 2113054 cable got really expensive. I remember back in the day of still getting some change back from a $10 bill for single pair Cat-2 :-)

Carl

How is this install any different from a traditional PBX?

Traditional PBXs terminate with either Amphenols or RJ ports. You would use a pre-terminated 25 pair cable with an Amphenol on one end, with RJs we have custom made 25 pair cables that break out into a dozen 6 position/4 pin plugs.

In either case the other end of the 25 pair(s) gets terminated on a 66 block(s)located on the system backboard. The premises wiring, which should be CAT3 gets terminated on another 66 block(s). Each extension on the first 66 block is then cross connected to the appropriate jack on the second 66 block with one or two pair cross connect wire as needed by the system. We would never use 110 blocks although some do as well as bix up North.

You should be able to pick out the difference here. IP systems require ethernet wiring all the way to the jack.

-Hal

So the only problem is the increased pair count and additional cost of cable. The side benefit being a more robust infrastructure that wont have to be redone.

By my google calculations Cat5 vs. POTS is about 5x the cable cost per foot per 25-port.

Thanks for your feedback. I hadn't thought of the difference in pair-counts. It sounded like the problem was that he would have to terminate to a patch panel as opposed to an RJ. What I get for not thinking.

Seriously, there is a huge difference between real and toy phone systems, not to mention their purveyors. Many folks here have made it clear that that they are a VOIP guys and that's fine. At the same time, people need to understand that we are talking about two completely different technologies.

For example, I can plug a headset into my PC, but does that make it a telephone? Of course not! So why is it so "acceptable" to manufacture a piece of hardware that looks like a telephone, when in reality, it's just another PC on the network? This piece of hardware is also vulnerable to network failures, just like with traditional PCs.

How many times have you called, oh let's just say your local supply house, only to hear "our computers are down". Guess what? There's a good chance that their phones are down as well and they are speaking with you via their TDM backup plan.

The term "RJ" refers to a telephone company network interface wiring pattern under the FCC's USOC (Universal Service Ordering Code). Using this term on the station side demonstrates ones' inexperience in this industry.

Sorry for the downer, but there is a huge difference between real telephone systems and "plug and play" ones. After my having said this, I hope that you VOIP fans will still hang around. Nothing is personal.

It's no sweat off my back. Without struggle there can be no progress.

You are correct, I dont have 10-20 years of Teleco experience. My experience with traditional PBX's were the old AT&T/Lucent Partner Plus systems.

I am also not familiar with the VoIP that you all are accustomed to. That means I have never used Avaya, NEC, Nortel, Cisco, etc. Therefore I cant relate to your frustrations with those systems.

I have had good experiences in the installs that I have done. Customers are happy and it works reliably. Despite whether it is a toy or not, if I have accomplished that then that is all there is to do.

I will continue to lurk around and post where I think I can help further the conversation or gain knowledge from it.

In any case, I still thank you for your constructive criticism and look forward to it in the future.

So the only problem is the increased pair count and additional cost of cable. The side benefit being a more robust infrastructure that wont have to be redone.

You still haven't got it. Pair count is the same- 4 pair to each jack. I certainly wouldn't consider all CAT5e a "more robust infrastructure" and futureproof.

As I have tried to explain there are fundamental differences as to how voice and ethernet is terminated at the equipment end. One will not work as the other even if it is all CAT5e.

VoIP= a computer simulation of a telephone.

-Hal

Option 1: Have a phone tech terminate a cat5e cable from the 110 blocks over to a patch panel. The only materials in use here are 110 clips and cat5e cable. Have each cable CERTIFIED from the patch panel through the 110 blocks all the way to the jack in the office. The certification is and will be very valuable in the future.

If done this way you have protected the integrity of the original cable install. Also, with the certification results you will be in position to defend yourself when the VoIP kids get in over there head and are in search of locations to place blame for their difficulties getting a toy to be a telephone.

I agree 100%. :toast:

-Hal

OK Then, Option 1 it is!
This is what I believed to be the best solution. Thanks so much for your input.
I have done this in the past (had all of my data drops terminate on 100 blocks and connect to the 100 block and go to a patch panel, gave me flexibility in the location of my switch cab) and have had the network certified to 330Mhz so this will be a good solution.
Do I hear the VOIP solution dissed as a toy... I am open to suggestion. I chose this solution; either Avaya or Cisco is what is be bid out; due to my size, under 200, and the fact that I have 13 locations and tying them together seems simple as I have been able to research.
Opinions, arguments Pro - Con?
I like to make informed decisions and am always willing to listen, doesn't mean I will do anything but I like to be "Illuminated"
Thanks again for everything,
Bill

Bill We discuss that issue on a regular basis here. Since we have determined a course of action for your original question may I suggest you start a new thread in General Category with the new question. Be prepared for considerable input from many members here. Evaluate the responses you get to determine the background they are coming from. They will come from either a "Technical Operations" background or a "Sales" background.

Buckle your seatbelt folks we are taking off!

Thanks, I'll do that.
I will spend a little time reading first though as it looks like a well covered subject and I want to ask the right questions. Looks like there a fans of both camps!