A customer found my company about 2 months after the CG was paid to cable the building. We sold the customer a phone system for the office. I explained I would not terminate cabling ran by the CG (As they claim to offer telephone system services and I wanted to see how they do)

My KSU arrived today so I went to take a look at the finished cabling (I saw it under construction and it wasn't pretty )

Here's the photo's






No ground wire was pulled in...I always install a grounding bar.

It's not the worst I've seen, but not the best either.

The backboard I saw completed by these guys was mounted above a toilet...

I may of lost the cabling job. However I've gained a new customer. We also sold this customer about $6k worth of audio / video equipment for the office. About $22k of home theater and automation equipment. To top it off I managed to fix network issues in his home the other guys could not.

Needless to say, I think this customer will use my company when his next office opens.

What's that split 66 block for?? Looks like a cable from both sides of it plugs into port #1 of that patch panel.

-Hal

my guess

blue and green pairs are feeding dial tone for two lines in a 568b cat5e jack (or 8 conductor plug crimped on the other end of the cable )

but why are orange and brown pair punched down doing nothing ?

The 66 block is where dial tone from the Dmarc comes in. I can't think of the actual name of the block, but it is not split. The horizontal pins on each row are bridged.

So both Blue and Orange are feeding 439-XXX0
Brown and Green are feeding 439-XXX1

Unsure as to why it was done like that.

The white cable with the 8p8c connector is feeding to two surface mount blocks for the alarm system. The way to blocks are wired, there is no line seizure for the security and fire systems.

RJ-21x would have the Amphenol connected to the clips on the right of a split block. You would use bridging clips down the center. When used as a demarc, telco would feed the left side, customer uses the Amphenol or clips on right.

That sure is a split block, look at the way the clips are turned. Obviously wire wrapped on the back, I have never seen one wired to an Amphenol as you think. I think there are two alarm jacks and they come back on the w/o and w/br. Your CO's are avilable down the left side. Bridging clips haven't been installed below those pairs if there are any more lines.

Pretty damn stupid to use the patch panel that way. The wiring should have been terminated directly on the 66 block instead of that jumper. Sure hope those don't go to a fire panel.

-Hal

Actually, there is a fire panel.

My guess - the 25-pair with the Amphenol end comes from the demark. Dial tone is on the Wht/Blu and Orn. Because the GC doesn't know how to punch down a 25-pair, he gets a pre-made cable and plugs it into the RJ-21 block. It's the Verizon flavor, with the wire wrap on the back, like Hal notes. But now, dial tone is coming in from the RIGHT, and out on the LEFT, backwards from the way it's supposed to be (amphenol is supposed to be for the CUSTOMER, not the telco.)

Finally, the 4 pair IS from the fire alarm, with Blu and Grn feeding the Primary and Secondary, and Orange and Brown being the returns.

Nice work, NOT!

Pretty damn stupid to use the patch panel that way. The wiring should have been terminated directly on the 66 block instead of that jumper. Sure hope those don't go to a fire panel.

Hal, of course they do :-) All you have to do is pull the 8p out of jack 1 and you get to disable the lines and the alarm system all at once!

We generously plan on 1/4 hour to terminate a 25-pair cable on a 66 block. A double ended Amp cable and a 66 to Amp block "might" be less than 1/4 hour of labor, especially if you don't know how to terminate a 25-pair cable, but I don't think so.

One other pet peeve. The bracket for the patch panel is upside down. It shows a clear attention to detail.

Aircom, it looks like you should intuitively know that the second row of the 66 block is yours to find the dial tone. Obviously it's not from the markings. The CG was probably gonna get to that when he installed the phone system.
Of course he told us where the alarm jack cable goes by clearly labeling the alarm jack cable with a sharpie.

Carl

Update:

I plugged in my cable certification tool. Found out all jacks are terminated oddly. When I removed a wall plate, a number of plastic bags fell onto the floor. Oh look it's the keystone's bag, they used the wall as a trash can, wonderful. Went around to each wall plate and took out the trash...

Found a few lines that are dead somewhere in the ceiling. Customer calls CG, CG arrives. CG informs customer that he's not sure why his installers wired the building as is and that it needs to be re cabled. He informed the customer it would only be a few thousand. Customer turns RED.
CG explains he does not do free labor. Customer tells CG to leave.

Very fun night.

am I understanding this correctly

not sure why my guys screwed up

It will be a few thousand (more)to do it right

:rofl:

Hey, what do you expect from a CG? It's just like software. You pay money for it, find out it doesn't work then you have to pay more money for the next release that may or may not fix the problems.

Is it any wonder why I hate CGs? That guy must have a set so big they clang when he walks!

This should be a lesson for everybody who is considering having a CG or IT person do anything other than sit their sorry butt at a keyboard!

-Hal

So, I suppose the CG has already been paid because customer knew no better? How much and do you guys have a small claims court? Or, alternatively, how can I get some of this CG's action! John C.

Let's just say total of 36 CAT5e (CMR) drops. A DVR with 4 Cameras (maybe 350TVL), a data cabinet, some 18-4 cable for the intercom and a little shy of $20k.

Can you say "thanks CG (cha-ching)".

Here's an update.

This was how I installed my equipment, the customer didn't want me to remove the patch panel, so I had to make some jumpers that terminated on a 66 block.

If you imagine the patch panel, netgear and top 66 block gone, it's decently clean looking,



I came back in today to make some AA changes, and this is what I found



The Netgear FVS 318 is not used, but still stuck up on the wall. The unit sitting on the roll of carpet is a Cisco ASA 5500. I woudln't "mount" a $700 unit to a roll of carpet.

I like the power cord management as well, it's beautiful :rolleyes:

Someone has wedged something behind the C-Class in picture #2. Looks like a clipboard or something like that?

I dont know why you think a CG would do this. It's obviously not done by one.

If it was done by a REAL CG then it would all be WiFi VoIP with a microwave to nuke his hotpockets sitting on the roll of carpet.

And you phone guys think yer so smart

Just got subcontracted today to do inside wiring MAC and asterisk consulting for a managed IT Services firm. Their office has 12' cielings and the BOTTOM of their backboard starts at the 8' mark. Need a 12' extension latter just to check the cable modem Not to mention the router/etc that is sitting on top of the blocks and smartjack box.

Well at least the phone system looks very nice!

Good one Jeff :rofl:

I just noticed, they moved my power supply! It's in a different spot in pic 1 than in pic 2. Also my zip tie anchors on top of the UPS are missing.

And yes, they did place a clip board behind the KSU. Unsure as to why

Have you shown the before and after CG pictures to your POC? Or are you afraid of the lawsuit after he gets out of the hospital.
If that was my "Technology" room, I'd be chewing -ss and taking names for the upcoming lawsuit! That is 1 disgusting mess! You do your best to clean up what you can, and the bozos come in and hose it again!
My condolences to you Aircom! John C. (Not Garand)

What does CG mean?

Some one with a runny nose :rofl:
or (computer geek)

Ah.

How about 'complete goof'?

Gotta ask, why are there no data drops?

Jeff:

I'll bet that they are terminated in the ceiling of the ladies' room.

Aurtur, If the CG's nose is not running, you DO NOT want to know why!

Jeff, Probably as was mentioned before, WiFi. Just look for the scuzzy microwave. That's the network room. John C. (Not Garand)

I just noticed, they moved my power supply!

That's because the the CG needed the UPS receptacle to plug in his IPod charger. He moved your transformer over to the non-UPS side because phones are just not important.

-Hal

Ed, that was good!

You should set up a time lapse camera to take a picture of that board once a day. If you stack a months worth of prints and flip them with your thumb real fast we can see it morph back to before you were there. :bang:

-Hal

You can just not make this stuff up.

How about when the CG mounts his rack right in front of the MDF, or should I just start a new thread?

:bang:

Yep. Just happened to me. CG's from the clients New York HQ come down and install enclosed racks (the big mothers with built-in A/C) LESS THAN 12" from the MDF. What's the thickness of an MICS? About 7"? So...I cannot even open the door to check the lights on the T-1 card, let alone change something out. I told the client I'll be back when they have the racks moved.

I had one where the "VG" (that's VIDEO GUY) mounted his rack right in front of the 66 block that all of the jacks were cabled to. Then, to make matters worse, they connected their equipment (set on a shelf in the rack) to the 66 block with very short cables (they used bulk cat5 cable so they COULD have made them longer), so you couldn't possibly move the rack out of the way (it was on casters) without making a mess.

Oh, these guys claimed to be "engineers", too.

I did that to myself in that I mounted a rack perpendicular to the frame because the video guy was supposed to put his cabinet BEHIND the phone system and TV rack. My 3 switches and router mounted in the top 1/4 of the rack and the phone system mounted in the bottom with the frame exactly to the right of the open space so I could get access to the first row of blocks.

Then the video guy mounted an agile processor in the space, and one of the Cisco managed switches died so they mounted a replacement in the open space and, next thing you know, I have hardware and patch cords in front of the blocks.

To make matters worse, the cabinet didn't fit benind the rack so he just wheeled it next to the 2 racks and it covers up the fire alarm system.

That was the last time I ever did that to myself.

Carl

Choo Choo Charlie was an engineer too!

Once upon a time there was an engineer
Choo Choo Charlie was his name, we hear.
He had an engine and he sure had fun
He used Good & Plenty candy to make his train run.
Charlie says "Love my Good & Plenty!"
Charlie says "Really rings my bell!"
Charlie says "Love my Good & Plenty!"
Don't know any other candy that I love so well!
:db: :db: :banana: :banana: :db: :banana: :db: :banana:

We sold a phone system to a couple building a multi million dollar home. They said their GC would cable the house and my company would terminate all cables at the MDF only. When it came time to hang the system and terminate the cables in the basement I noticed all the station cables were short, so short the MDF had to be hung at top of the wall , this basement had 10' walls. The GC told me he did like wasting cable and pulling the cable to the floor would have been to much of a waste. When I asked him if any one of those cables had to be replaced because they were to short what is more expensive the cable or labor, boy did he get pissed.

I had an new apartment block a couple of years ago that the cables were just barely out of the ceiling. Not even enough for a terminal block so I had to beanie them all.

Dave

Check this handy work out! If this is our competition then we are in TROUBLE!
https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18886458-Phone-wiring-block

I like the looks of the 4x12 distro block. Very neat and clean install. Might not be a bad idea for residential install. Better then the crap leviton modules.

Ofcourse, can always jut use a 66/110 block, but it would look more cluttered. That might be a good reason, more incentive for them to call you to change their set-up

The rest of that post is pretty crappy tho

Jeff, are you saying that those pictures are good or bad? Looks like crap to me. Obvously some CG by the way those CAT5 cables are terminated on the blocks which, by the way don't even have brackets.

-Hal

I am saying it is terrible!

I am tempted to post the following reply:
Even if it was temporary I would not ever do work like that...I certainly would not put my name on it.
Your quote that Home Depot selling 66 brackets separately makes me assume you got your blocks at Home Depot? By chance are you a computer tech and not a phone tech? Some things are better left to professionals...

bump

Go get em Jeff!

-Hal

Look at his response! By the way, my post was moderated, their moderator said '[Lets try to keep our criticism a little more constructive please - Dennis]'
Ha, they want constructive, hmm they already have Home Depot in the post lol.

Yes I got them at Home Depot, primarily because it's the closest place and I don't have to wait for it to ship but the place of procurement doesn't really matter. If this were a permanent install then by all means I would have bought and installed the brackets for them. But since I knew it was getting ripped out and likely never used again anywhere, why pay for it? Yes I got them at Home Depot, primarily because it's the closest place and I don't have to wait for it to ship but the place of procurement doesn't really matter. If this were a permanent install then by all means I would have bought and installed the brackets for them. But since I knew it was getting ripped out and likely never used again anywhere, why pay for it?

Yes I am a computer tech primarily and while I don't consider myself a professional or claim to know how everything is done that doesn't mean I did it wrong. I agree it isn't the professional way to do it and most people would have never seen it had I not taken a picture to help Wayne explain his point. Sure most people would have still gotten the brackets anyway but I looked at it from a stand point of wasted money and I'm sure anyone else doing this for temporary use would have thought the same thing.

AAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!

wasted money...HOME DEPOT SELLS 66 BLOCKS FOR $22.00 BUCKS A CLIP!!!

I said, if you want to spend 12 bucks on a block then go for it!
Too bad he doesn't know what they should cost! Thank you retail world!

His last reply...OOH he is using a Crisco system, how nice!

Believe me, if this were for anything other than my own personal use at the office I would have gotten the brackets and done it "right", especially if I was being paid for the job and even if it were temporary. The voip system isn't in place yet cause until now we hadn't settled on how it would be done, what provider, what technology behind it, etc.

Originally I was going to do an Asterisk server out of one of the spare servers here and use Polycom phones or such. The trunk would have likely been a ViaTalk trunk. I then started broadening my search just to see what else was out there and found I could get Cisco phones for about the same cost as Polycom or Linksys phones. I really liked the Cisco offerings over the others but Polycom would have been my fall back choice.

Recently we started saturating our single T1 so when I contacted FDN to inquire about a bonded T1 I mentioned the voip plan and he gave me a quote for a PRI as well. I compared it to the ViaTalk trunk and individual PSTN lines and found the PRI to be the better deal. We're getting a 2821 router to run the bonded T1 and PRI so I'll likely run CallManager Express for the phone system. Right now I'm just waiting on the supplier for an updated quote on the router and once we get it in I'll schedule a time for the cut over of the internet and phone system.

Wow, I gotta get out more often. I sell block and bracket for something close to the $12.00


Carl

Why do these IT guys refuse to deal with real phone service providers? You never hear of them getting service from QWest or Verizon or even a CLEC. It's always some unknown fly-by-night service provider that nobody's ever heard of. It's bad enough that they think their rinky-dink systems are so great, but when coupled with an unknown carrier, they end up with a real toybox on their hands. What happens?

The whole thing fails miserably and they end up scrapping it. That being said, the small guy will never see an opportunity to sell them anything. The management will insist upon not making the same mistake twice and only buy the replacement system from the big guys.

I like his reasoning on why he went with Cisco phones instead of Polycom: "Ohh, it's a Cisco".

There goes cisco surviving on brand-name recognition again. The only thing their phones have going for them is sexy good looks.

While I will debate whether or not Asterisk is a 'toybox', I whole hearted agree with what Ed said about the VoIP crowd in general.

If you approach it like it's a toybox, then that is definately what it will be.

Not to hijack your thread, but here is a link to an interesting group of guys who are using Asterisk for a unique application:


https://www.ckts.info/

The * boxes are used as Class 4 (tandem) offices, with Electromechanical switches as the Class 5's. Trunking to all points on the globe is via the internet.

Yeah... Sangoma usually has a demonstration set-up in their booth that has one of the old hand-crank phones hooked up to asterisk. Crank it and it connects.

It's part of their testing lab where they supposively have thousands of telephone handsets and other gear that they do regression testing on for their PSTN cards.

I've been thinking of throwing together an asterisk box on an old machine and letting everyone here connect to it for grins. Not sure who would really care tho. Plus who really wants one more thing to check/etc.

Ok, back from the Hijack...

:thumb:

I feel lucky if I find CG or "Master" electrician's wiring that winds up with the white/brown pair intact.

Generally, I find line 1 on the Green/Orange pair, line 2 on the Blue/Brown pair, and all the white "neutrals" twisted together with a big wire nut.

If it's a house with 20 or 30 jacks, it can take all day to straighten the crosstalk out.

HA, I have never run into anything that bad

Here's a picture of some fabulous CG wiring jeff: CG Wires

ha that's one of the oldest circulating pictures on the web!

Jeff, consider yourself lucky regarding Aurthur's comment about green/orange. I've had to fix EVERY jack in an 80 room motel. With admin, meeting rooms and front desk, that's about 110 jacks. At least they all have the same problem (usually). And THAT is why you want to get the system in as soon as the rooms are painted, but no furniture is in place. John C. (Not Garand)

I think what's making CNET popular is the way that it allows those trying to keep old electromechanical switches running use them for something other than just dialing from one end of the house to the other as a demonstration.

I've chatted several times with one chap I know on there who has what is believed to be the only surviving UAX5 switch (an old, tiny rural system).

i know you guys have a huge disdain for CG's and i have to agree with you on most points. I fell into the computer field when the telecom field was having a dryspell here in canadia when i entered the workforce. There are some of us who would prefer to do phones over computers anyday. Through my previous employer i was able to train with the house technician and be his backup, he was a former bell canada guy. In my spare time ive been working for a telephone contractor who is also former bell. Computers may still be my main gig at this point in time but telecom is my passion. My part time boss (the phone guy) has been impressed enough with my work to allow me to take care of exclusively 4 clients.

Please when critiqueing computer guy wiring remember some of us have made personal efforts to aquire the knowledge and would NEVER do a butcher job like you have shown in the past

I have a new tech just getting started in the business. He is going to school to be network engineer. I told him the best way to set himself apart from the other computer guys is to get a good base in cabling and understand the right and wrong ways of doing installations. He has since started working with my company and is learning alot. He will be one of few CG's that will be given my respect. Most are too lazy to really care.

Also, is there any specific area of this site where we can post pics of our jobs to see what other techs think about it? I take a picture of every job.

We don't have a specific place to post pictures, you could start a thread in the cabling section if you would like.

I'd like an opportunity to post some "before and after" pictures, myself. Most of my work involves following around the master electricians, CG's, and other experts, and fixing their screwups.

This is power rather than telephone (yes, I wear more than one hat as well!), but here are some before and after pictures from a job I did at the beginning of the year:

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/111315/page/1

I have been back since and tidied up some of the telephone wiring, although I'm still waiting for the rest, and for the revised alarm and CCTV cabling which was supposed to be happening "soon."

I have created a new post in Cabling for people wanting to post pictures of their work.

https://www.sundance-communications.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/24/t/000361.html