Do you NEC techs who work for dealers know these forums are open the public? These forums are supposed to be for end user issues only, like how to call forward phone and such. All this technical information you are handing out gives the customer good reason not to call a dealer in to solve their problem.

Start using PM's and save our jobs.

I agree to a point. Cut back on the technical information on current systems. However, I have found that many dealers discontinue support when NEC discontinues a system. For end users with older systems a forum like this is their only recourse.

there are many interconnects who support manufacturer discontinued equipment I suspect most others here do. for example I was working on a DS1000 this morning . the recourse for the a end user on discontinued systems is to call a Pro not to be walked through programming in the open forum here

as to your "agreeing to a point " you may want to review the rules of the forum " As a rule of thumb, if the information is not in the users or administrators guide, do not post it in the forum. If you wish to relate such information in regard to a post, you should do this by sending a private message or an email to the poster."

https://sundance-communications.com...ules_&_How_to_use_the_Tec#Post534613

But all they will do is go to other forums who do give the information freely and which website is more likely to survive? This is a globally marketed system and there are plenty of sites out there that will help walk people through programming some of the most complicated things. Burying our heads in the sand isn't going to help!

Techs seem to forget that the equipment belongs to the customer and they are entitled to know anything they want to about their own property, people should stop thinking they can hold the customer to ransom!

I own my car, but I don't expect my dealer to walk me though fixing the transmission.

There was once a time in this business that technicians were properly trained and took pride in their work. We studied hard and passed certification exams, because our continued employment and future pay raises were on the line.

These days, every "IT professional" and their brother thinks that they can be a phone man. And it shows. Look into any random closet and see the mess that MDFs and IDFs have become. It's obvious that the responsible person wouldn't know a BSP if they tripped over it.

So, no apologies if I don't give away for free the knowledge and experience that took me years to obtain.

Someone should tell Cisco this. But seriously, owning something doesn't mean you have the right to know everything from someone. Helping someone with easy problems found in any user manual is one thing, getting into technical problems AND security on an open forum can lose you your NEC NTAC ability. Look it up sometime. You don't think they watch these forums? The last conference I went to they knew who I was.

There is a reason the manufacturers don't include programming manuals and access to NTAC with every system sold .

they are certainly entitled to know whatever they want , they just aren't entitled to our telling them how to do it here for free

the rules for user guide in the open forums info was set up by the founders of this board its been around quite awhile and is doing well .

But you can probably easily buy a workshop manual for it and no one can stop you from tinkering with it. It's when you get out of your depth and need bailing out that the experts make money!


And Cisco are having what problems by being totally open and letting everyone know the technical stuff? As I say, These systems are available all over the world, what is NEC NTAC going to do to stop me (for example) from telling someone something when I am based in Australia?

If we make it hard for people, they will simply (over time) migrate to other solutions that are more open in the dissemination of technical information and then it will be pointless having learned all that information because the customer base is so small. Trust me, it is happening here in Australia My local NEC branch has been shedding staff for years. Some of the most qualified techs have been let go and sales don't bode well for the future IMHO.

So what's your point? If I give away my knowledge to anybody who asks I or some fellow tech will be out of a job. Then you say "if we make it hard for people, they will simply (over time) migrate to other solutions that are more open in the dissemination of technical information..." We're out of a job there too.

So we're damned if we do or damned if we dont and at my age I don't give a rat's rectum what happens anymore. But I'm not going to be a hippocrate and help someone take money out of a fellow tech's pocket regardless. You say the information is all over the internet? Good! Knock yourself out. I like to think that we here still have loyalty and integrity.

-Hal

NTAC can pull your access. That is huge. I don't know what's going on there but NEC is trouncing others companies in sales.

Not necessarily but we do have to adapt. I don't expect to get the simple jobs anymore but I also now get the "get me out of this $#1T" jobs where people have overstepped their abilities. The amount of information people can access these days is an order of magnitude greater than even 10 years ago and it will only get greater. On my own fourum, in Oz, I give access to tools I have developed over the years to simplify programming and whilst these are aimed at other techs, users can also access them. What would you have me do about that?

your forum you're free to do whatever you want , we have long established rules here and we don't give end users the keys to the kingdom.

you could always do whats done here and establish private areas for those who are verified to be in the business and post your tools there

Funny how the new generation (millennials?) seem to think knowledge should be free and nobody should have to work for it. It's a commodity just like anything else. Only when it hits them in the pocketbook will they understand.

-Hal

Not sure how long that will be in my part of the world the way NEC AU is treating it's dealers and their tech support. You can't email anyone in the TAC just to ask a general question not a problem. You have to call their Australian call center and log a job and then put this job number in the email you send them before they will answer it. If i was an NEC dealer in AU and got treated like that I would walk to another product that gives beter tech support. Not sure how the US dealers are teated by NTAC..

NTAC is actually very good here in US. The website is awful to put it mildly. Ya you can navigate it but what a pain. I have no idea if they paid someone to do that but if they did they got ripped. Which is weird because the Aspire and UX websites are fantastic. I don't have a lot of issues usually because almost everything is done ahead of time and I catch it before an install usually. I also ALWAYS initialize the system and THEN overlay the programming on the hardware. This goes back to the iseries days and has saved me from grief unlike two other techs I have tried in vain to do this.

Some years ago, I asked an NEC engineer why so many things in the systems were undocumented, and why the interface seemed so convoluted. He told me, "so your customers will need to call you for anything more than simple button programming."

And in most cases - that's what happens. I have had a couple of clients that insisted that their tech people take ove the system once it's installed and running - I do just as much work for them as any other customer, if not more. When the on site IT guys get it nicely fouled up - I can come in and save the day.

I understand the idea about not giving away info though - but I sort of thought most people on this board were in the business. I support some systems that I am not certified in, and this board has been a wonderful resource for me.

My two cents......

I find the system easy compared to like Tadiran. Not as easy as ESI but really is any system that easy save Alworx? Also, I suppose since I've been working on these things since TIE and Nitsuko I find them easy. The only thing I find to be a pain are the Froute tables but they make sense.

As Toolie said, many of us here are in the business. Some, like me, aren’t big time channel partners, but we’re all doing this for profit. We each have a different level of knowledge and expertise and we’ve paid our dues over time with our experience.

I post in the Installers category when appropriate for the topic. If nothing more than end user info should be discussed in open forums, then perhaps we need more private categories so we can have those discussions privately and in a category related to the system in question. Would other techs be more willing to discuss and help in a private, system specific category?

Jim

Another tech yes. An end user, customer, sparkie or IT guy absolutely not.

-Hal

And just how, on an anonymous forum, do you tell the difference? Some users are more knowledgeable than some techs!

I have no problem sharing info or documents with my customers. I even have cheat sheets that I leave on site to make it easy for anyone to support them. If I am doing my job right and charging a fair price the only customer I lose is worth losing. As for sharing info in a forum I will try to help anyone trying to learn the skill but try to avoid the ones just trying to save paying for qualified help.

This indeed may be the case in some instances but that is why everyone is supposed to fill out their profile. The rules of the forum are in place for a reason. Breaking them because you don't agree with them is another matter.

First off fill out your profile and if you lie I can tell. Second, the techs here are pretty well known. Don't expect any kind of real answer until you have participated for awhile and provided information that shows that you are a telecom tech. Third, just don't give out any tech level information in the public forums period. Techs have private forums here where we can go to talk to other techs.

-Hal

Absolutely. I can think of several names right off who we have helped learn the trade. Unfortunately there are many more that are too cheap or work for somebody too cheap to pay. They couldn't care less about the trade, the only reason they come here is to get somebody to solve their problem for free.

-Hal

Exactly, so why restrict it to certain people in the old mens club?

Phones are changing, Asterisk is big, and the whole idea is open to everyone. If they can't figure it out, they will buy a branded system. Technology is changing fast, how many TV repair shops are there now? Things are becoming simple for people to do themselves. Hosted services are growing all the time. Thinking that locking the few people out of one way of doing it just motivates them to look for options.

It's also obvious who is someone that is asking you to lead them by the hand, as opposed to a specific technical issue.

I appreciate all of you that support us techs on the site. Makes it easier in a small market, can't be up to speed on all the stuff out there. Also gives options where the dealer pisses off customers.

Asterisk is not big at all (just look at market share NEC is HUGE). Got it, used it, programmed it, and came away unimpressed. FYI once you customize it's quite proprietary. Reminds me of the 80 and SYSOPS on mainframe company computers.

When you buy an NEC system that requires a dealer and certs you are buying into a service contract. Just anyone off the street isn't going to do well on these systems and in fact may be jeopardizing either an SWA or warranty by not being certified. NEC carries a line of systems that ANYONE can install and sell. You still need to do some small online training for these but at least you get NEC support.

This is precisely why vetting the installing company is SO important. Off soapbox.

I agree that customers need to ensure they are working with someone solid if they want a solid system. It's up to the customer and there are options. As technology is rapidly changing, it critical for installers, vendors, and manufacturers to be noticing whats really going on, and really change with it. I see so many installers of various systems that just want to do the same thing and quickly become dinosaurs. Manufacturers go out of business because someone came up with a newer, simpler, cheaper technology.

I have sparkies that do phones and cameras and security and home automation, they aren't experienced, qualified or licenced as required in some places. Often do a horrible job. Not much I can do, hope the inspectors catch them and do something. They do a horrible job often and when I get brought in, the customer doesn't want to pay for real stuff, not a customer I care about then anyway. I get the last bit of security stuff or just monitoring from them and thats it.

It's clear hosted PBX and related services are improving and growing, and may be one of the technologies that kills traditional phone systems and services. It's comparatively cheap to offer.

I am at odds to recommend a ILEC PRI vs SIP trunking which is cheaper. Particularly on a budget. Old approach is, yah, PRI is more solid and guaranteed. SIP etc can do almost as well and better with the right company and infrastructure, with some probably minor service issues. Eventually SIP and whatever will be a no brainer, and is in some places.


Holding customers hostage that want to do some aspects of their system them self doesn't serve anyone in the long run. Many system customers I know have a bad taste in their mouth from this kind of thing.

As said, some 'qualified' installers are worse than some customers.

I agree, you want solid and robust, get someone that knows their shit and can do it well, and get yourself involved to your comfort level.

Some years ago I was setting up and managing a facility and had to do the Meridian M1 and Call Pilot training. There were two facilities with M1s and I was the second on staff guy trained on it. The dealer did the initial install and we took over most everything from there, they were available if we needed anything, yet never an issue. Those things were stupidly unfriendly to what systems are now. May as well have been assembly language.

Here is an article about what I am saying about technolgy, once the hundredth monkey effect hits, everyone will want Hosted/VoIP etc.

https://www.techzone360.com/topics/...mb-perceptions-usage-business-phone.htm#

The problem is things are being forced on something that essentially not needed nor wanted. Everyone wants hosted? Perhaps people that aren't informed or cannot do math properly. There are VERY few instances where hosted is a better fit. Not to say they aren't out there but when you do the hard math it's cheaper to have an in house system and generally has better tech support and more reliable. I have won EVERY battle vs hosted by simply bringing a calculator and looking 5 years down the road. If they need more operating expenses you can do fair-market. They need capital expenditure you do dollar buy out (hosted can't do this one). I agree the older systems were harder but they were pretty damn bullet proof too as you didn't usually have non-certified people try and do programming. Digital phones are still very viable these days although more and more are going VOIP. Not an issue other than showing a complete lack of training on some IT staffs on routing principles. Oh, how many networks I have had to fix and I thought my computer days were over a long time ago . Seriously though, if you are wired for digital phones why not stay that way? Deploy VOIP where you need it and when it makes sense to do so.

Yah, new stuff coming and getting cheaper.Hype and marketing for good reoccurring revenue.

Hosted is good for small with remote locations and mobile.

In house, particularly if you have it already, why switch?? Why go VoIP phones on an in house system? Digital phones do most anything they do and less infrastructure, existing simple wiring, no PoE switches, no network BS. Depends on application though.